Hector gets the money to finish the job
$2.2 billion ought be enough to ramp K10 and R600 and finish Intel once and for all.
If Hectors needs more, he will get it.
The notes can be converted to AMD stock at $42, or about 50 million shares.
The folks who lent this money saw the K10 in action and decided they can make a huge fortune from the $2.2 billion invested.
Meanwhile, people found that the $65 x2 3600+ smashes Core 2 Duo in 64 bit computing. Dell customers also found the old K8 dog mauls quad core Intel.
posted by Sharikou, Ph. D. @ 4/27/2007 11:44:00 AM
105 Comments:
2.2 more BILLION dollars in debt.
Can someone explain to me why this is a good thing?
Meanwhile Intel is still making plenty of money, and it's profits continue to increase.
2.2 billion - the 600 million or so that Morgan Stanley gets off the top = 1.6 Billion. They'll be hard pressed to cover operating expenses + finishing retool to 65nm...and forget 45nm, which, btw, they HAVE to go to in order to stay even remotely competitive.
Hallucinate much?
How much dilution is it?
We interrupt the "Intel delusional reality" to bring you this news:
AMD also has 200mm equipment from FAB 30 to sell and land to liquidate as well. I also remember they recieve a nice incentives package from the Saxony goverment in Germany for adding an additional plant next to FAB 30/36 if they decide to do so in the future and the plant in New York if they ever decide to go through with that as well. I won't even bother going into detail when (not if) they win the Intel anti-trust suit, but that's a few more years down the road at this rate.(yep, it's going to happen folks, "loosing" emails is just the tip of the iceberg of how much crap they know they are in)
Debt is not necessarily a bad thing Evil, get a clue. Every company has some form of debt these days, granted AMD has more than I personally care for, as Intel is putting pressure on them. Reguardless, they have been in far worse financial positions in the past. As long as they have some sort of money coming in and are able to pay off thier debts, they can stay in business. I imagine stockholders aren't going to be too happy for the time being, however, staying alive finacially until they get thier next gen wares out is priority No.1 right now for the short term.
I'm pretty certain some of the rabid Intel zealots here don't have a long enough memory span to recall AMD during it's pre K6 and pre K8 eras, as they were far closer to bankruptcy then than they ever are now. AMD will bounce back, K10 will cement that, make no mistake. Intel's had it's day in the sun with Core 2, now it's AMD's turn with Barcelona.
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2734
FYI Tim, the conversion over to 65nm in FAB36 is near 100%, as stated in the above article, as they are pumping K10 chips for the release date, to assume anything else is simply grasping for straws.(because I sure as hell doubt any of you work for AMD) They are working with IBM for the 45nm, immersion litography and up to 22nm. AMD and IBM have proven time and time again they can beat Intel at thier own game when it comes to engineering, period. Finances are not an issue here, yet, as all available money first goes to thier engineering(R&D) and with IBM in tow, it won't be a problem to take care of any issues as they come with in thier planned time frames.
AMD building another FAB will not be a problem as I've stated in the above reasons, if a particular area is interested enough in an AMD FAB site, they will give the money as part of a incentives package to have it built if necessary. The economic impact of such a facility creating so many jobs and business is easily worth footing the cost of the FAB by the local government and surrounding area in general.
FWIW, AMD also has Chartered's FAB 7 as an additional FAB "on call" for overflow demand and is at the same manufacturing ability as FAB36, using 65nm, 300mm wafers and AMD's APM process.
http://www.primenewswire.com/newsroom/news.html?d=109668
We now resume the "Intel delusional reality" already in progress...
The folks who lent this money saw the K10 in action and decided they can make a huge fortune from the $2.2 billion invested.
LMFAO! the folks who lent this money doesn't care about the profit averse AMD. Even if AMD goes bust, this loan allows them preferential rights to company assests when AMD goes bust. I'm actually thinking these investors are wishing for AMD to go bust. That way they make more money than if allow AMD to continue and make a profit. Yeah, right, when was AMD ever profitable.
Please go and educate yourself about such things.
http://roborat64.blogspot.com/
Sharikou
Meanwhile, people found that the $65 x2 3600+ smashes Core 2 Duo in 64 bit computing.
Are you serious?
You are now posting comments from Newegg customer reviews as fact...
You really are getting desperate!
You are now posting comments from Newegg customer reviews as fact...
People's real experience is far more trust worthy than the results by paid pumpers such as Anand and Tom, whose bread on the table depends on Intel's pay outs.
And meanwhile we are supposed to take YOUR word being pumped by AMD?
Pot Kettle Black
At least Anand and Tom don't lie about PhD's.
S W E E T!!!!
Sharikou
People's real experience is far more trust worthy than the results by paid pumpers such as Anand and Tom, whose bread on the table depends on Intel's pay outs.
Well how about the review that you had posted...Tech Report, seems Intel is still able to beat AMD in Vista 64-bit even if AMD is at 3GHz, or is Tech Report a paid pumper too?
The "Ph"ony "D"octorate couldn't be more correct.
Hector got another 2 billion dollars to finish the "job."
His Barcebalongna is so big that he'll need to expand a large portion of his remaining cash to outfit the remaining portion of his 65nm factory. But that won't be enough. He'll need to pay IBM another couple hundred million to accelerate 45nm development and tooling as Barcebalogna is too big to be cost effective to compete against INTEL's 45nm Penrym. Nehalem will take away the high end and force Barcebalongna to ASPs of less then 200 bucks by 2008. At these prices AMD will lose money on every Barcebalogna die at 65nm. Fusion will offer little ASP relief and there won't be any capacity to give to Fusion in 2008 as AMD has locked down commitments already to Dell for Barcebalogna. Hector totally screwed AMD with his dell deal. Hector will have to borrow more and spend all of it to try and do 45nm in 2008. He has started on a horrible downward spiral strategy in a war he doesn't have enough resources to win. Hector is a lot like the deranged Adolf who decided to attack Russia. Regardless of how good the arm or designers are they can't win this battle.
INTEL will have 4 45nm factories cracking close to 300 million Penrym/Nehalem/Silverthornes/Larabees that will force ASPS way down.
Sharikou, you are correct the 2 billion will enable Hector to continue on his job of bankruptying AMD.
If he didn't get the money he would have been forced out and the hard working engineers of ATI and AMD might have actually had a chance to do another grand design. But they are now resigned to be BK in 2008. Ironic, the more money Hector gets the more assured he'll achieve the "job" of BK AMD.
It amazes me the "Ph"oolish followers of the "Ph"ony "D"octorate
Lets see I'm going to have some fun with a few great silly lines from another "Ph"ony.
"AMD also has 200mm equipment from FAB 30 to sell and land to liquidate as well"
WOW you know how much 130nm 200mm eqiupment fetches, its cents to the dollar dude. I feel for you when you have to defend your companies finacial viability by telling us how it can sell outdated tools, land and buildings. Is that a company in duress or what.
""loosing" emails is just the tip of the iceberg of how much crap they know they "
Really, if Microsoft judgment is any indication then I'm sure Paul and the legal team have much to fear. If your defense of a company comes to lost emails as the biggest thing a company has going for it how sad is that? How about lets talk benchmarks, technology or other relevant items. I didn't know AMD's business success hinged on "losing emails" Is that a laughable that is what the survival of the company is hanging on. If you are a fan, go root for the Cubs as they are in better shape. If you are a ATI/AMD employee, I feel for your family, better polish that resume and fax it to Nvdia or INTEL.
"Debt is not necessarily a bad thing " Not at all, many companies choose to go to debt market because of attractive financials. Has it been lost on you that this company MUST go to debt as they have a serious cash flow problem. What are you stupid or what? Its like saying its okay to charge on my credit card. Its one thing if you can pay off your card its another if you are already high in debt. Sorry your logic is broken here too.
"As long as they have some sort of money coming in and are able to pay off thier debts" Dude they don't need money just to pay debt? They need the money to cover cash flow. They are no longer generating enough cash to cover their basic operations; salary, capital expenditures. Have you figured out that when you drop the prices of your product by more then 50% without any signficant volume increase you are going to be in a world of hurt. It ain't about covering debt its about managing cash... run out of cash and you go BK.
"They are working with IBM for the 45nm, immersion litography and up to 22nm" So how does immersion and working with IBM solve their fundametnal problem? Their 45nm design rules and technology is already locked and coming out at best in 2009. Based on their 90nm and 65nm publicatoins its already clear they are not only years behind INTEL but at any given node their process is inferior and more expesnive. Immerson will only add more cost burden. Pss selling bigger die for cheaper from a more expensive process results in lower revenues that don't cover cost. That is why they have debt and cash flow problems. More debt doesn't help, more expensive processes that come 2 years too late don't help. And when has IBM managed to deliever a high performing capable process. IBM has no clue to manufacturing. Remmebered they dropped out of DRAMs, PCs, Hard-drives, printers. ANythign where they had to compete on cost they lost.
"AMD and IBM have proven time and time again they can beat Intel at thier own game when it comes to engineering, period" Really can't recall anytime since the mid 1990s that IBM could say it was superior to INTEL in silicon.
"Finances are not an issue here, yet, as all available money first goes to thier engineering(R&D) and with IBM in tow, " Yup that is why Hector and team have all admited they need a new direction. That is why they needed to reduce expenditures by 500 million. That is why they needed another 2 billion... yup finances are not an issue.
"AMD building another FAB will not be a problem as I've stated in the above reasons, if a particular area is interested enough in an AMD FAB site, they will give the money as part of a incentives package to have it built if necessary. The economic impact of such a facility creating so many jobs and business is easily worth footing the cost of the FAB by the local government and surrounding area in general." So if the country of India or the state of Indiana would to foot the bill do you think that fab there would be very productive. Indian and the midwesterners woudln't know how to build a computer chip, though I'm sure they could tell you how to shovel cow chips. Take upstate New York is willing to pay the bribe. You think AMD can attract 2-3 thousand talented workers there. Money isn't the only thing it takes skilled labor to.
"FWIW, AMD also has Chartered's FAB 7 as an additional FAB "on call" for overflow demand and is at the same manufacturing ability as FAB36, using 65nm, 300mm wafers and AMD's APM process."
You ever wonder why Charter can't win Nnvida or ATI business for their advance process? Because its crap. Also you can't really believe that APM stuff do you? That feedback control is offered by every vendor in the business to improve yield and binsplits. YOu are are a sucker with no knowedge.. another "Ph"ony like Sharikou PhD "Ph"ony "D"octorate.
We now resume the "Intel delusional reality"
Yup...
1.6billion profit on 8.9 billion sales delusion
C2D bencharks crushing Opteron delusion
5% marketshare increase in one quarter, wiping out one year of AMD gains delusion
4 65nm factories are a delusion
4 45nm in construction are a delusion
Penrym demos with huge performance improvements are a delusion
By the way I had a delusion that I actually saw a Barcebalogna in a computer with some benchmarks.
Let me find the link... Opps that was a delusions LOL
no matter what way Ph(ake)d and his moronic minions spin it...
Its all just lies funded by AMD...
"$2.2 billion ought be enough to ramp K10 and R600 and finish Intel once and for all."
Too bad that debt will be mostly used to pay back their older debts. AMD simply doesn't have enough cash to pay their depts any more.
lou ceifer
"AMD also has 200mm equipment from FAB 30 to sell and land to liquidate as well."
That costs peanuts compared to how much does 300mm 45nm equipment cost
"I'm pretty certain some of the rabid Intel zealots here don't have a long enough memory span to recall AMD during it's pre K6 and pre K8 eras, as they were far closer to bankruptcy then than they ever are now"
Oh really? You might want to look up their old financial reports. How much loans did they have back then? How much cash?
"FWIW, AMD also has Chartered's FAB 7 as an additional FAB "on call" for overflow demand and is at the same manufacturing ability as FAB36, using 65nm, 300mm wafers and AMD's APM process."
How big capacity it has compared to fab36 and how fast can it be used? What about the products that are made there when AMD is not using it for its overflow?
Also you should know that AMD has problems getting rid of their CPUs, there is overflow and it is in the warehouses.
sharikou
"People's real experience is far more trust worthy than the results by paid pumpers such as Anand and Tom, whose bread on the table depends on Intel's pay outs. "
Thank you but I prefer having information that can be proven. Uneducated guesses do not qualify.
Also you can all see the insane profits AMD earns from selling those rather big dies for $65 in retail.
We interrupt Lou Ceifer's delusional fanboy rant to remind him that if AMD sells anything of a significant value (over 30m) Morgan Stanley gets all that money, as if specified in their loan agreement.
is Tech Report a paid pumper too?
Get with the times my man! Intel has paid them all off! TomsHardware, TechReport, Hexus, Anandtech, Bjorn3D, ArsTechnica, FiringSquad etc. All Paid pumpers!
AMD has cut funding for it's fabs in Germanyt FAB30 will remain 200mm and 90nm well into 2008, possibly even 2009. AMD will be stuck making CPUs at 90nm for a very long time.
Intel has four 45nm fabs coming online this year and the next, ready to pump out millions of AMD killing Penryn and Nehalem processors.
Hector Ruiz is the man. He has the perfect strategy! I know! We'll go further into debt to continue our operations!
The board should fire Ruiz and his team of loons and find a buyer for AMD:- Someone with enough cash to wipe out this debt and get the company back on track.
I think Sharidouche meant Hector gets the money to finish running AMD into the ground...yeah, that's what he meant....
enumae
everyone who posts negative "facts" about AMD is a paid pumper by Intel.
everyone who posts postive "facts", and disses Intel for everything they do, is a very knowledgeable person with morality.
so all you delusional Intel fanbois need to get a life, and get educated.
welcome to the Sharikou's world.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/cmp/20070428/tc_cmp/199202249
Blah Blah Blah
Another spin from Intel!!!
enumae said...
Sharikou
Meanwhile, people found that the $65 x2 3600+ smashes Core 2 Duo in 64 bit computing.
Are you serious?
of course he is serious. He is a man of integrity. He has recommended AMD stock at almost its peak and i'd believe he has bought some just to practice what he preach. Yeah, he is serious, doing more free ads for AMD by all those neweggs links, hoping to boost AMD sales. :)
CRN: What will be the performance of Barcelona vs. Intel's quad-core?
RICHARD: It's in the speculation stage. [But] we know that we expect performance gains in the 40 percent to 70 percent range, and we know the scalability of our architecture is better than the competition. And it's no secret they have to introduce a new architecture at some point, so we know Barcelona will perform exceptionally well and will be outperforming the competition. The program is on track.
An interview with someone from AMD is not proof of performance. After all, AMD promised R600 would be fast, turns out it's soundly fragged by G80.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Intel needs 4Ghz and 45nm to match Barcelona perfomance. Their dual foots in single boot tactic will no longer able them to run faster. Intel BK Q208
http://enterprise.amd.com/us-en/AMD-Business/News.aspx
AMD 90nm old architecture Vs Intel 65nm new architecture
Intel Xeon 3.4Ghz = 16,320 QphH or 1.66Mhz/QphH
Intel X5355 2.66Ghz = 15,724QphH or 1.353Mhz/QphH
AMD 8220SE 2.8GHz = 17,180 QphH or 1.30Mhz/QphH - 27% better per cycle
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Murphy/?p=838
Thanks for that link pezal. So you are telling us that an Intel 2P server comes awfully close to matching the performance of an AMD 4P server?!
A 4P AMD server will cost a lot more than a 2P Intel server for comparable performance. AMD's top processor 8222SE is over $2000. You need four of them. Intel 2P Quad Core Xeon CPUs are only $1100. $2200 vs $8000. Intel is the "smarter choice".
We know that in 2P servers Clovertown frags Opteron by a whopping 79%.
http://tweakers.net/reviews/661/4
AMD is clearly fragged in CPUs by Intel. AMD is fragged even more in GPUs by Nvidia. R600 can't even compete with six month old 8800 GTX.
AMD's market share will be 1% after Q4'07.
This comment has been removed by the author.
For the record once more:- An Intel 2P server offers 92% of the speed of an AMD 4P server platform with much lower power consumption at a fraction of the price.
"Smarter Choice" indeed Mr. Ruiz, "Smarter Choice" indeed.
AMD the Architecture King and Innovator
- Hypertransport
- True multi-core and quad-core with no scaling issue
- Integrated Memory Controller
Why Intel is a Hack Job
- netburst (high GHz low performance, appropriate name and all netburst models and inventory are obsoleted by AMD's low end single-core http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.html?i=1927)
- hyperthread (Intel tried to pass off this hack as multi-core on unsuspecting buyers)
- mask taping two dual-cores to make a quad-core (hack job design reveals severe scaling issue, like getting only 3-cores for the price of 4-cores http://blogs.sun.com/bmseer/tags/scaling, exponential penalty as more cores are added)
With a poor architecture Intel has to resort to things such as 65nm die shrink and bloat the cache 4x just to match the performance of AMD's two year old 90nm technology. Intel need to copy AMD's Hypertransport and IMC to catch up with multi-core scaling.
AMD is finished, no one wants AMD's 90nm ancient space heaters. Why pick up a X2 6000+ when you can get an E6300 and overclock it to 3.6GHz, which can frag every AMD CPU.
I predict AMD will exit 2007 with less than 5% of the marketshare. Barcelona won't be able to help AMD as it already has been pre-fragged by Clovertown.
AMD BK 2Q'08
"of course he is serious. He is a man of integrity."
No he's not. No one with integrity would lie about having a ph.d.
Poke said ...AMD is finished, no one wants AMD's 90nm ancient space heaters. Why pick up a X2 6000+ when you can get an E6300 and overclock it to 3.6GHz, which can frag every AMD CPU.
"Ancient space heaters"...hmmmm isnt that the term exclusively reserved for the millions of Dell netburst boxes still in widespread use ??
Just keep this term for your favourite Intel CPU ...
FYI the X2 6000 beats the E6300 on several benchmarks , but I dont care ...I just dont want to buy any Israeli hack jobs ..Period !!!
FYI the X2 6000 beats the E6300 on several benchmarks
Wow! AMD's 3Ghz beats Intel's 1.86Ghz in several tests!
Everyone is tired of AMD's old hackjob spaceheater processors. Only capable of executing three instructions per cycle. Pathetic. Only capable of 64bit SSE. Pathetic.
What's wrong with HyperThreading? On my old secondary 3Ghz Northwood system from 2003 HyperThreading improved video encoding times by 15%. Of course, it wasn't possible to make a true dual core CPU on the 130nm technology of the time anyway.
Why do people keep insisting on IMCs being AMD's idea? The canceled Intel Timna processor had an IMC. The first shipping CPU with an IMC was the Alpha CPU.
I like how Pezal and Sharikou will link to data showing a 2P Xeon system keeping up with a 4P Opteron system. But, both Opterton and Clovertown have been speed bumped to 3Ghz recently. From 2.8Ghz -> 3Ghz = a 6% increase. The AMD system with a 3Ghz Opteron would score 106% the score of the 2.8Ghz Opteron. The 2P 2.66Ghz Clovertown CPU was 92% of the speed of the 4P 2.8Ghz Opteron system. At 3Ghz, with a 12% boost, this result is increased to 104% of the original 2.8Ghz Opteron system.
So a 2P server costing a fraction of the price (2200 vs 8000 for CPUs alone) is within 2% of the speed of a 4P AMD platform.
"Why pick up a X2 6000+ when you can get an E6300 and overclock it to 3.6GHz, which can frag every AMD CPU".
Why choice to play games for only 24 minutes when you can play your favourte games for 24 hours without having any overheating problems?
Ohh.. of course there are so many complaint from customers claiming that their conroe cpus quite hot. (70C-100C?)..
AMD is always the "Smarter Choice"
Have you seen the real information on power use? http://techreport.com/reviews/2007q2/core2-qx6800/cine-power-peak.gif
These results caused a TechReport writer to announce Power use on the Quad FX systems is... embarrassing.
Peak power consumption the E6600 uses 163W of power. The 6000+ uses 243W of power. That's 50% more power for the AMD system! Clearly, Intel CPUs are more energy efficient whilst still offering superior performance.
E6600 frags 6000+ in performance:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/cpu/dualcore-roundup/charts/average.png
AMD BK Q2'08
Giant said...
Wow! AMD's 3Ghz beats Intel's 1.86Ghz in several tests!
Everyone is tired of AMD's old hackjob spaceheater processors. Only capable of executing three instructions per cycle. Pathetic. Only capable of 64bit SSE. Pathetic.
Looks like you have absolutely no clue as to what a CPU is , please post this sh*t in some Intel fanboy blog (btw does that even exist ?)
Looks like you have absolutely no clue as to what a CPU is , please post this sh*t in some Intel fanboy blog (btw does that even exist ?)
So tell me, Netrama, are the following statements true or not? A simple correct or incorrect for each will suffice.
1) K8 can only execute three instructions per cycle, while a Core 2 Duo can execute four.
2) K8 Only has 64bit SSE. A Core 2 Duo has 128bit SSE.
Again, a simple correct or incorrect for each will suffice.
Have you seen the real information on power use?
Power usage is not the issue as long as the cpus stable and free from any overheating problem.
What for u buy the pc if you only can switch on it for only 24 minutes? Wow.. intelers IQ cannot even differentiate a cat and a dog..
Intel BK Q208
1) K8 can only execute three instructions per cycle, while a Core 2 Duo can execute four.
K8 can execute more than 4 per cycle while core 2 duo less than 2 per cycle.
2) K8 only has 64bit SSE. A Core 2 Duo has 128bit SSE.
K8 is the true 64-bit processor of course it has 2 x 64=128 bit while Core 2 Duo only has 64 bit because it is a 32-bit processor
AMD Cpus
1. Integrated DDR Memory Controller (MCT -> 128-bit unbuffered DDR2 memory PC2 6400,
PC2 5300, PC2 4200 or PC2 3200
2. Integrated Northbridge -> Yes,
128-bit data path @ CPU core frequency
3. 3D and Multimedia Instructions -> 3DNow!™ Professional technology, SSE/SSE2/SSE3
Intel cpus
1. Integrated DDR Memory Controller (MCT) -> No,
Discrete logic device on motherboard
2. Integrated Northbridge -> No,
Discrete logic device on motherboard
3. 3D and Multimedia Instructions -> SSE/SSE2/SSE3
Wow pezal that is some very informative information you have there. You have truly convinced me that K8 is the superior processor then tell me why does every k8 line get whooped by the ancient and inefficient C2D in almost every app and benchmark while being clocked higher than the C2D???
K8 can execute more than 4 per cycle while core 2 duo less than 2 per cycle.
K8 is the true 64-bit processor of course it has 2 x 64=128 bit while Core 2 Duo only has 64 bit because it is a 32-bit processor
Have you even a modicum of evidence to back these claims up?
It's common knowledge that Intel's two largest advantages with the Core Micro Architecture are the ability to process four instructions a cycle and the 128bit SSE engine.
FWIW, 3DNow is largely irrelevant. People optimise for SSE, since 80% of CPUs shipped are Intel, and Intel uses SSE exclusively. AMD hasn't updated 3DNow in years.
Re: The 64bit thing, who cares? Intel had 64bit technology with the Itanium years before AMD did. Hell, the MIPS processor was 64bit way in 1991, sixteen years ago. Stop acting like integrated memory controllers and 64bit technology are stuff that AMD created.
"why does every k8 line get whooped by the ancient and inefficient C2D in almost every app and benchmark"
Wow.. intelers really proud on their new C2D surpassing the AMD old architecture by only 5-10% in every apps benchmark..
According to scientia explanition:
Determining performance requires benchmarks but today's benchmarks have been created haphazardly without any type of standards or quality control. The fact that a benchmark claims to be a benchmark does not mean that it measures anything useful. When benchmark code is too small or is run in an environment far simpler than a real application environment we get an artificial sensitivity to cache size. This is particularly true of shared cache as C2D has. Under real conditions the use of cache by both cores tends to fragment and divide up the L2 which limits how much gain each core gets. Yet, typical testing by review sites carefully runs benchmark code on only one core without other common threads that would be running in the background. This tends to make these tests more of a theoretical upper limit than something that is actually attainable. This common testing however is misleading because the split caches on K8 are immune to cross core interference. This should mean that K8 will perform better under real conditions than typical testing would indicate.
Wow.. intelers really proud on their new C2D surpassing the AMD old architecture by only 5-10% in every apps benchmark..
Silly delusional AMD fanboy, it's more like 25%-40%.
What I'd be most proud of
Postive cash flow, profits, market share, market share growth.
AMD got none of that. And you know why P... boy? Becasue C2D whomps K8.
Where is Barcebalogna anyway?
Hey Sharikou,
I think I am going to disagree with you here on the benefit of the cash that AMD is seeking. It may be a short term solution, but they would have to do a lot more than that to gain market share back. Checkout my analysis at
http://itkitty.blogspot.com
Pezal
AMD Cpus
1. Integrated DDR Memory Controller (MCT -> 128-bit unbuffered DDR2 memory PC2 6400,
PC2 5300, PC2 4200 or PC2 3200
2. Integrated Northbridge -> Yes,
128-bit data path @ CPU core frequency
3. 3D and Multimedia Instructions -> 3DNow!™ Professional technology, SSE/SSE2/SSE3
Intel cpus
1. Integrated DDR Memory Controller (MCT) -> No,
Discrete logic device on motherboard
2. Integrated Northbridge -> No,
Discrete logic device on motherboard
3. 3D and Multimedia Instructions -> SSE/SSE2/SSE3
1. C2D trumps K8.
2. C2D trumps K8.
3. C2D trumps K8.
wonder why K8, with all the more "advanced", and "innovative" feature, still being trumped by C2D?
sharikou
People's real experience is far more trust worthy than the results by paid pumpers such as Anand and Tom, whose bread on the table depends on Intel's pay outs.
and while Anand, Tom, and others performed the test under controlled environment, average users do not. This is the exact same reason why big corporation like Intel or AMD do not cite personal experience as proofs.
Poke said...
Silly delusional AMD fanboy, it's more like 25%-40%.
actually E6600 is a just little faster than the X2 5600. And That is a $320 CPU VS $180 CPU.
and its spicy ass get owned by X2 6000, even in media editing.
http://xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/athlon64-x2-6000_3.html
http://xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/athlon64-x2-6000_7.html
Inteler wankers should just stop wanking and face the fact that they bought some expensive trash because of stupidity. :)
Spanking
Intel Price Cuts, maybe you should have looked before making your statement...
^^^ figures like most AMD fan bois they are only good in talking out of their A$$......
Inteler wankers should just stop wanking and face the fact that they bought some expensive trash because of stupidity. :)
And dumbass AMD fanboys like you should stop talking out of their ass. A X2 5600+ has a 400MHz advantage over the E6600 and the E6600 still frags it. Clock for clock, Core 2s are 25%-40% faster. Also note that the E6600 is $200 after the price cuts.
It's funny how you dumbass AMD fanboys claim Xbitlabs, Toms and Anand etc etc are Intel paid pumpers but you guys cite them anyway.
By the way, thanks for the link, Spanking
http://xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/athlon64-x2-6000_8.html
Frankly speaking the launch of the new AMD Athlon 64 X2 6000+ processor is not a very big event. Until promising new cores based on K8L micro-architecture come out, AMD will hardly be able to surprise us with anything. After the launch of Intel Core 2 Duo processor family, AMD K8 micro-architecture turned pretty obsolete.
"A X2 5600+ has a 400MHz advantage over the E6600 and the E6600 still frags it.
A Pentium 4 3.46Ghz has 1400Mhz advantage over my old AMD64 3000+ and my AMD64 3000+ still frags it.
Clock for clock, Core 2s are 25%-40% faster.
From the benchmark, seems like the E6600 averagely faster/slower than amd 5600+ in the range of 0.5% - 9.0% only
And dumbass AMD fanboys like you should stop talking out of their ass. A X2 5600+ has a 400MHz advantage over the E6600 and the E6600 still frags it. Clock for clock, Core 2s are 25%-40% faster.
Most Intelers do not have sufficient IQ to compute percentages. Even the less retarded Intelers agree that Core 2 has about 10% IPC advantage. However, recent benchmarks with Core 2 show that when Core 2's cache is reduced, all its advantages are virtually gone.
Hey Ph(ake)d.
I would watch the throwing of comments around here.
1.) No one else around here claims to have a PhD even when proven otherwise by the community as a whole.
2.) No one else around here, with the exception of you and your lapdogs are claiming Intel will be BK by 2008.
3.) No one else around here, with the exception of you and your lapdogs, are stupid enough to make the dumb ass claims you are making about the performance of unreleased chips yet.
4.) No one around here, with the exceptions of you and your lapdogs, are claiming the AMD/ATI video cards are superior to what NVidia is currently shipping, even when proven they ALREADY are performing under what the existing 8800's are doing.
With all these FACTS, its quite apparent that the IQ of yourself, and your lapdogs should be the IQ's in question.
With all these FACTS, its quite apparent that the IQ of yourself, and your lapdogs should be the IQ's in question.
In your mind, Intel is forever. But, every empire falls, and I predict that the time for Intel's demise is 2Q08. It will be a violent death. Intel won't even be able to pay the damages for its anti-trust violations. So, Patty and his friends are smart to exercise their options and rake in some hard cash. It will the last time they do it --K10 launch is imminent.
Pezal you are so full of sh*t.
I'm sitting here with a C2D E6400 and a system with an X2 Dual-Core 4400+. The E6400 simply wipes the floor with the 4400. Both have IDENTICAL video cards, the same 4GB of ram, and the same 400 GB SATA hard drives. Really the ONLY difference is the motherboard and CPU.
Compiling the Linux 2.6.21.1 kernel, under C2D took 27% less time than the X2.
While running under Windows Vista,
running Oblivion in 1280x1024, my C2D box has a 17% better frame rate.
While doing anything with Video or Sound, the C2D has it ALL over the AMD chip by HUGE margins, HUGE as in over 50% in some instances.
See, unlike Pezal, lou ceifer, Sharikou Ph(ake)D and the rest of the usual fanbois, I USE BOTH platforms, thus I can speak intelligently about them without combing thru other fanboi posts to make a point, and of course discounting any site that shows the Intel side of the house winning this small battle in the war between Chipzilla and chimpzilla. Funny when Anand was all AMD for quite a while there were no issues with him, but now that he as confirmed that Intel is simply superior to AMD's products at this time, he is in Intels pockets.
What a bunch of hypocritical little boys.
Sharikou, Ph(ake)D blathered:
No, see, unlike you I can use BOTH platforms without some kind of blind dependency on AMD or Intel.
I'm also not blinded to the fact that Intel is STILL making money hand over fist, unlike AMD.
People that "claim" and I use "claim" because it has absolutely NO grounding in any type of fact at all, that Intel is going BK in 2Q08, but in reality its just like the Macintosh RDF... no different at all.
Just another fanboi claiming to be a PhD spouting pure unfiltered crap.
Randy Allen said...
A lot of nonsense...
You are up Intel's ass so far up that all you see is shit and all you say is shit!
Come up for some air!
The 64bit thing, who cares? Intel had 64bit technology with the Itanium years before AMD did. Hell, the MIPS processor was 64bit way in 1991, sixteen years ago. Stop acting like integrated memory controllers and 64bit technology are stuff that AMD created.
x86 is what the world uses, so AMD brought 64-bit and IMM to the world. They may NOT have invented it, but they sure as hell brought it for the world to use. That is what REALLY matters!
Who cares if a processor had 64-bit and IMM if that processor represented 1% of all the worlds applications.
And your argument about Itanium being 64-bit years before AMD... your right, but Itanium is that 1% of applications being run. When was the last time you used an Itanium?
And the argument about Intel having IMM on a canceled project? Guess what, back in the late 70's I had a project to produce a Windows Vista and a 64-bit processor and, and... but I canceled them all. So I guess the world owes me recognition (according to your logic).
I'm also working on the cure for AIDS and CANCER... (soon to be canceled). I guess the world will owe me a lot more recognition.
Evil said...
Compiling the Linux 2.6.21.1 kernel, under C2D took 27% less time than the X2.
There's another moron that obviously didn't see my post a few weeks ago!
See, [...] I can speak intelligently about them without combing thru other fanboi posts to make a point
So far nothing you have said in this blog has been intelligent.
Trying to say that Intel has a slight advantage or lead would give you some credit!
But with words like... "mops the floor with" and "50% advantage"... you just make yourself look like a big idiot that will say anything without any knowledge of any kind.
Can someone explain to me why this is a good thing?
Unlike personal debt, corporate DEBT can be a good (strategic) thing. Within the bounds of reason of course!
What are you stupid or what? Its like saying its okay to charge on my credit card.
It's not the same thing at all... learn the difference before calling someone stupid.
And let me remind everyone that stocks (or shares) is a form of corporate debt. Actually it is considered to be the most expensive form of corporate debt.
Jeach! == another Ph(ake)d lacky fanboi.
I wonder why it's OK for Ph(ake)D to make comments like:
It was a total slaughter.
As I analysed long time ago, the Intel CPUs were the cause of the explosions so vividly shown on various web sites. In some cases, even houses and trucks were burnt down by Intel notebooks.
Dell customers also found the old K8 dog mauls quad core Intel.
K10 is the cold blooded killer
whose K10 design will frag Intel to death.
Sure, its OK for your not so illustrious leader to proclaim crap like this, but OHHH NOES!!!! if someone makes a comment about Intel doing the same to AMD.
STFU fanboi.
"ATI said in front of 150+ journalists that the R600XT won't be able to compete with the Geforce 8800 GTX."
Can we talk about that for a little?
The "Ph"ony "D"octorate likes to twist and turn...
But the simple facts are this
AMD just starting at 65nm with one piddly 300mm factory trying to ramp a 283mm^2 die
INTEL has 4 65nm running C2D at a die size of 143mm^2
INTEL has 2 45nm factoires that will be up this year and another 2 45nm factoires next running Penrym which is a whopping 107mm^2 with 12 M of cache.
People like to make noise about some benchmark or some power level.
But the bottom line is AMDs days are number, way in debt, way behind on technology, way behind on manufacturing.
INTEL even in 2004-2006 when they were playing with netbust they still cleaned AMD's clock in the only place that matters which was revenue, profits and market share.
AMD came clawing back with a one hit wonder due more to INTEL screw up then any greatness at AMD.
INTEL got its grove back with C2D, Penrym and Nehalem are cut of the same cloth. That plus their technology and factories will crush AMD.
Hector belew his one load chasing marketshare and has ruined the company in this prusit. I feel for the hardworking AMD engineers and designer, to bad the'll all be working for some other company in a few years.
As for INTEL, they were a DRAM company, then a EPROM company and now a CPU company. They will survive many more years then AMD.
AMD is a joke as are its followers.
I especially laugh at those suckers that bought their overpriced hardware only 3 months ago, 6 months ago and now can find the same chip for 1/4 the price. You were a SUCKER.. NO.. you were STUPID, noooo you were a cumm lapper.
Pezal
...seems like the E6600 averagely faster/slower than AMD 5600+ in the range of 0.5% - 9.0% only...
You should have looked at the numbers more closely, the numbers are actually more along the lines of...
The X2 5600+ advantage is between 1.8% and 19.7%.
While the E6600's advantage is between 2.4% and 120%.
Both have advantages, and they were within 1% point in three benchmarks, but you should really look a little closer beforme making statements.
Poke said
I predict AMD will exit 2007 with less than 5% of the marketshare. Barcelona won't be able to help AMD as it already has been pre-fragged by Clovertown.
What have you been smoking? Barcelona will easily frag Clovertown.
Randy Allen said
Peak power consumption the E6600 uses 163W of power. The 6000+ uses 243W of power. That's 50% more power for the AMD system! Clearly, Intel CPUs are more energy efficient whilst still offering superior performance.
Why are you bragging about a 1 year old architecture using less power than a 5 year old architecture? Duh!
E6600 frags 6000+ in performance:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/cpu/dualcore-roundup/charts/average.png
Nice "average" benchmark there. I'm totally swayed. I posted a review of the 6000+ a couple weeks ago that showed it going toe to toe with the E6700 in 64bit Vista. Care to explain that?
http://techreport.com/reviews/2007q1/athlon64-x2-6000/index.x?pg=1
Where's the fragging? I must have totally missed it. Loser Intel Fanboys...geez! No sense of reality.
Giant said
What's wrong with HyperThreading? On my old secondary 3Ghz Northwood system from 2003 HyperThreading improved video encoding times by 15%. Of course, it wasn't possible to make a true dual core CPU on the 130nm technology of the time anyway.
I'm a programmer and a couple years ago I was unfortunate enough to have a P4 2.8ghz computer at work that was incredibly slow. One of my colleagues told me how he disabled hyperthreading in the BIOS and it sped his machine up so I tried it and sure enough performance improved. Maybe hyperthreading improves performance in some very specific applications, but in general it slowed down my pc.
The facts speak for themselves. The Core 2 Duo E6600 is:
1) Faster than the 6000+
2) Is Cheaper
2) Uses a lot less power
3) Has much more headroom for overclocking
I predict AMD will exit 2007 with less than 5% of the marketshare. Barcelona won't be able to help AMD as it already has been pre-fragged by Clovertown.
Yes. Barcelona is all talk by AMD. AMD was a one trick pony with K8. Clovertown will frag Barcelona. Penryn will extend that lead even further. If AMD's current market share losses continue after Q4'07 AMD will have only 1% of market share.
VIA will soon be a larger CPU company than AMD. Then I predict VIA will pick up the scraps of AMD.
E6600 soundly frags 6000+ http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/dualcore-roundup_8.html
Even the cheapest E4300 is more than enough to frag AMD 4400+.
Both K8 and C2D are more than up to the job of doing most desktop work that we need at the moment, can't say I find neither my X6800 nor my Fx-55 too slow.
My Northwood 3Ghz now just does general WP and browsing duties and for that sort of task that's not too shabby either.
Due to the price war at the moment both companies offer good performance per buck, I think this is more important than who can save a few seconds here or there or a few fps.
It's a real golden age for the buyer after a long period of both companies baving high margins and prices.
>>2.2 more BILLION dollars in debt.
Can someone explain to me why this is a good thing?<<
Hey man, I coudn't agree with you more Dr. Evil! AMD needs yo whip up some great partnerships with mainframe makers you that use at least a couple of thousand microprocessors for any stand alone systems.
Google "invest_mavin"
Presidential Primaries '08!!
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R600 is designed for the future games..
Radeon HD 2000 series supports Superscalar marchitecture and it means that with Vec5 or Superscalar ATI can process 5 scalar instructions per clock. It has a 64 Unified Shaders and adding these two numbers you end up with amazing number of 320 Stream processors.
Nvidia G80 GTX can handle only Vec4 instruction on a scalable way or four independent instructions and it looks like ATI might have an advantage here. Nvidia can process 128 Stream processor instructions but at much higher clock, 1.35 GHz while R600 can do 320 Stream instructions per clock but at half of speed or 750 MHz clock. In raw match G80 at GTX clocks can handle 172.800 Millions or instructions or Shaders if you like while R600 can handle 240.000 Millions or Shaders per clock.
http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=743&Itemid=1
BTW, the Geforce 8800 GTX was slightly faster than R600 in the previous benchmark it could be due to the Intel Cpus bottleneck (as per mentioned by sharikou). The QX6800 might less capability to run the 3 years ahead 3D card which is finally give advantages to Nvidia to won the fight. However, I predict Barcelona will boost the R600 performance up to 40% soon and that will be more than enough to frag intel QXs & Pen*s forever.
giant said..
"A 4P AMD server will cost a lot more than a 2P Intel server for comparable performance. AMD's top processor 8222SE is over $2000. You need four of them. Intel 2P Quad Core Xeon CPUs are only $1100. $2200 vs $8000. Intel is the "smarter choice".
comparing the Xeon 5160 to the 8222 SE is stupid, and heres why. The whole 8xxx series of AMD Opteron CPUs is made for 8 WAY OR GREATER processor configurations while the Xeon 5160 is made for 1 or 2 WAY processor configurations. To get more than 2 WAY configurations with Xeon you have to buy Xeon MP which is different beast altogether.
Its official Rich from newegg says that "AMD makes good gaming Proc.s but Pentium makes the best for everything else."
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16819116249
According to my predictions my netburst based three year old celeron will beat barcelona by 200% in almost every benchmark.
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lex's an one-eyed troll. Amusing to read his posts.
Sharikou was wise to provoke those types enough so that they stop in by here at times.
lex, you should get to publish your very own amusing blog.
Pezal spewed-forth:
R600 is designed for the future games..
Oh gee, just like the NVidia 8600 and 8800 family is? The Nvidia card STILL outperforms the R600 by a rather large margin at higher resolutions.
symbiansn said...
lex's an one-eyed troll. Amusing to read his posts.
Sharikou was wise to provoke those types enough so that they stop in by here at times.
Using the word wise in sentence with the word Sharikou is an oxymoron. The guy is about as wise as my mug of hot chocolate.
Do you enjoy being a rabid little fanboi?
evil
I do enjoy your posts too, bud.
symbiansn said...
I do enjoy your posts too, bud.
One does have to try. There is NOTHING better on the net than getting some rabid fanboi up in arms and frothing at the mouth...
comparing the Xeon 5160 to the 8222 SE is stupid, and heres why. The whole 8xxx series of AMD Opteron CPUs is made for 8 WAY OR GREATER processor configurations while the Xeon 5160 is made for 1 or 2 WAY processor configurations. To get more than 2 WAY configurations with Xeon you have to buy Xeon MP which is different beast altogether.
I wasn't comparing the 5160, it was the X5355. The article Sharikou linked to compared a 2P Xeon system to a 4P Opteron system. I merely compared them on price as well. The results stand.
A 2P Xeon system (CPUs costing $2200) vs. a 4P Opteron system (CPUs costing $8000) with a much higher heat output as well (4CPU vs 2. CPU) and the Xeon system offered performance within 2% of that of the 4P Opteron system while using a lot less power and costing a lot less.
Ahhh yes, as expected the morons take the bait. Well, let's start this party off right shall we?
...some Intel mouth breather wrote:
"It amazes me the "Ph"oolish followers of the "Ph"ony "D"octorate"
Lets see I'm going to have some fun with a few great silly lines from another "Ph"ony."
Ahhh yes, the ad homnium personal attack, boooooring. Try and again, next time be more creative, so far a pathetic response. I guess if you don't any real facts to respond with just go with the standard fare personal attack right? Yawn. Oh well, I'm bored, so lets go:
"Really, if Microsoft judgment is any indication then I'm sure Paul and the legal team have much to fear. If your defense of a company comes to lost emails as the biggest thing a company has going for it how sad is that? How about lets talk benchmarks, technology or other relevant items. I didn't know AMD's business success hinged on "losing emails" Is that a laughable that is what the survival of the company is hanging on. If you are a fan, go root for the Cubs as they are in better shape. If you are a ATI/AMD employee, I feel for your family, better polish that resume and fax it to Nvdia or INTEL."
Haha, pathetic response as usual, the case hasn't even started yet chump and this AIN'T M$ who's getting sued, different ballgame here. There is FAR more evidence to be discovered, go read AMD's pdf file on the suit, there is far more to find than just "lost emails".
http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/DownloadableAssets/AMD-Intel_Full_Complaint.pdf
Intel doesn't have the cash these days to pay off anybody like ole Billy boy can. As I stated, this is just the tip of the iceberg of that case, the proceedings haven't even really got underway just yet and already Intel has to delete obvious mountains of evidence in emails, otherwise they wouldn't have a problem recovering it or trying to cover thier ass about it. There will be other evidence though I'm sure, in the form of witnesses, information/documents from other companies and so forth so don't worry, Intel's still got lots to worry about. As far as the technological/performance advantage, that will disappear for Intel in about roughly 1-2 months for servers and 3-4 for desktop/notebooks with the arrival of K10, aka Barcelona. This will also ensure AMD's survival as well.
Heh, I sure as hell don't work for AMD/ATI and if I did, I wouldn't be wasting my time stirring up crap with the likes of you as it's obvious quite a few of you work for Intel.(or at least are obsessive fanatics) Otherwise you wouldn't be so pissed off about Sharikou's comments/viewpoints I suspect. The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree eh?
"Not at all, many companies choose to go to debt market because of attractive financials. Has it been lost on you that this company MUST go to debt as they have a serious cash flow problem. What are you stupid or what? Its like saying its okay to charge on my credit card. Its one thing if you can pay off your card its another if you are already high in debt. Sorry your logic is broken here too."
As Jeach has already stated, debt is not necessarily a bad thing, as you must have credit to do business, whether good or bad. Granted it's far more than I like in AMD's case or anyone else for that matter, but that's a fact of business man, it happens. A company has to do what it can to stay alive, it's not the end of the world for AMD. As long as they can pay thier bills, K10 does well in the next few months and they pay off that debt in a timely fashion, there won't be a problem. Comprende'? Or are YOU stupid???
The bottom line is this folks: IT DOES NOT SPELL THE END OF AMD LIKE YOU AND THE REST OF THE INTEL ZEALOTS THINK IT DOES, PLEASE GET A DOG AND NAME HIM CLUE SO YOU WILL FINALLY GET ONE.
"Dude they don't need money just to pay debt? They need the money to cover cash flow. They are no longer generating enough cash to cover their basic operations; salary, capital expenditures. Have you figured out that when you drop the prices of your product by more then 50% without any signficant volume increase you are going to be in a world of hurt. It ain't about covering debt its about managing cash... run out of cash and you go BK."
Uhhhh, can't you read what I typed or did you fail reading/comprehension in elementary too? As I stated before, as long as they get thier bills paid, K10 does well they will get the money to pay off said debts in time. They have quite a number of years to pay that debt off, it's not like the loaners are collecting tomorrow people. You people are seriously making a mountain out of a molehill here IMHO. Yes thier situation isn't good at the moment but as long as they have secured enough money to keep them afloat while thier next gen products gets out and increases thier revenue across the board I don't see a problem. There have been other companies in far worse positions I'm sure.(like AMD in the past)
"So how does immersion and working with IBM solve their fundametnal problem? Their 45nm design rules and technology is already locked and coming out at best in 2009."
HAHAHAHAAHA! You're a comedian right? Okay, you need to lend me your crystal ball since you can see into the future and already know how everything is going to happen right? Please.
Okay, here's a hint for you. Smaller process nodes DO NOT guarantee any measure of success much less performance, or yield rates for that matter. Remember the 90nm P4 vs. 130nm K8 comparisons? No contest in performance, power consumption or thermals against the K8.
This is how IBM comes into play here: IBM is helping AMD (along with it benifiting IBM) to ACCELERATE thier research and design time and switch to lower process nodes sooner. This saves them time and money when they pool thier resources together with IBM. By the time they get to 32nm or 22nm they will be roughly on par timewise with Intel's processes. So is that too difficult for you to understand?
"Based on their 90nm and 65nm publicatoins its already clear they are not only years behind INTEL but at any given node their process is inferior and more expesnive."
BAHAHAHAHA!!! The only advantage Intel enjoys at the moment until they get over fully converted over to 45nm is the fact they have far more FABs than AMD. I have one word for you though on that. APM. Intel has nothing to match it in thier design process as they do copy exact, starting with thier prototype FAB and then recreate the process in thier other FABs for high capacity. AMD can switch designs(not process nodes though) on the fly in any of the FABs thanks to APM to get production streamlined and efficent. It's all about doing more with less and on the cheap. For more info on the matter, go ready Scientia's blogs on process node times between them, he knows and researches far more than me and you put together on the matter.
"Immerson will only add more cost burden. Pss selling bigger die for cheaper from a more expensive process results in lower revenues that don't cover cost. That is why they have debt and cash flow problems."
Well, lets see, you're either going to have to go with immersion on 45nm or double the scans of the die so either way AMD and Intel is going in production to take is going to be more expensive than previous process nodes. So which will it be? AMD and IBM are going with immersion. Eventually, come 32nm Intel will have to resort to it as well, they will have no choice from what I have read of shrinking to such small process nodes. Better to start now than later IMHO. None of this has to do with AMD's debt problems, that has more to do with getting ATI streamlined into the company and Intel putting pressure on them on the market. Again it seems, your logic fails.
"More debt doesn't help, more expensive processes that come 2 years too late don't help. And when has IBM managed to deliever a high performing capable process. IBM has no clue to manufacturing. Remmebered they dropped out of DRAMs, PCs, Hard-drives, printers. ANythign where they had to compete on cost they lost."
Please. Thier processes are anything but late according to thier given time frames, you're delusional again. Just because they aren't parallel to Intel's time frame means they are late? Hahaha! Again read my P4 90nm vs. K8 130nm analysis and comparison. Nothing is set in stone of what will happen. And yes, IBM had alot to do with AMD getting the K8 at 130nm out. Did you just turnup up on the turnip truck? IBM's been working with AMD for quite some time now. Go do something more useful with your time instead of insulting people like researching into related articles reguarding before the K8's release. You know, the thing that you obviously don't do enough of when you spew some of your "facts"?
http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/background.wss
Let's see, IBM is still around aren't they? They are still a solid, profitable tech company right? Just because they don't produce PCs anymore doesn't mean anything, they do far, far more than that. By all means, try again to show IBM as a crap company if you can, it's amusing to say the least.
"Really can't recall anytime since the mid 1990s that IBM could say it was superior to INTEL in silicon."
Uhhhh lets see... They CREATED the the PC x86 platform that Intel currently enjoys mass producing microprocessors for these days? Again, perhaps you Intel zealots have a short memory but if it weren't for IBM awarding Intel AND AMD manufacturing rights and privliages for thier PC model's processors and logic back in the day, they would probably be nothing more than your average microprocessor companies these days, if they would even still be around. Of course this means nothing to you right? Can't let logic or history get in the way of your "facts" here eh?
Need I have to go drag up as well when the K7 beat the PIII in performance, AMD beat Intel to 1 Ghz, the K8 beat the P4 across the board?
What about IBM's Cell processor and it's many other patents and patent-pending technologies it has?
http://www.ibm.com/ibm/licensing/
Nah, didn't think so.
"Yup that is why Hector and team have all admited they need a new direction. That is why they needed to reduce expenditures by 500 million. That is why they needed another 2 billion... yup finances are not an issue."
Blah blah blah. As I said, as long as the bills get paid, K10 does well and the debt gets paid off in due time, big deal. AGAIN, buy a clue please, nobody died and made you or anybody else AMD's personal CPA(s). Nobody really knows how bad thier situation is except for AMD themselves.
"So if the country of India or the state of Indiana would to foot the bill do you think that fab there would be very productive. Indian and the midwesterners woudln't know how to build a computer chip, though I'm sure they could tell you how to shovel cow chips. Take upstate New York is willing to pay the bribe. You think AMD can attract 2-3 thousand talented workers there. Money isn't the only thing it takes skilled labor to."
Haha, this is a joke right??!?! DO you seriously think AMD or any other tech company for that matter or any local government or nation's government is that stupid??? If you do I have some awesome beachfront property to sell in you Arizona, for cheap!
Don't you think for two seconds that such research is done by BOTH PARTIES involved in such a business venture in those areas before any ground is broken for a FAB to see if a FAB is reasonable, affordable, economically viable and benificial to all in said area(s)??? This isn't a simple country store they are running here, this a multi-billion dollar industry FAB. ALOT of planning goes into something this massive, don't be so naive.(or stupid!)
"You ever wonder why Charter can't win Nnvida or ATI business for their advance process? Because its crap. Also you can't really believe that APM stuff do you? That feedback control is offered by every vendor in the business to improve yield and binsplits."
Uhhhh, lets see, AMD is almost all of Chartered's business??? Yes, that's right. That's why Chartered isn't worried about Nvidia or ATI's business, besides ATI is irrelevant now that AMD owns them. Nvidia seems to be pretty happy with TMSC's production for thier wares these days anyway.
As far as AMD's FAB's APM capabilities go, hmmmm... To believe you or an company's word on how it does it's manufacturing used on it's FABs and those of one of it's business partner's... Ahhhh damn, that's hard. Not.
APM does FAR more than feedback control to improve yield and binsplits. IMHO, if you're going to comment on something you obviously know nothing about, it's best to keep your mouth shut, leave the illusion to everyone else that you may not be an idiot than to speak and remove any doubt.
Here's some reading for you later so you will be educated on said subject in the future and reduce your said oriface spewing I pray about APM. By the way, APM has about 300 patents and patent-pending technologies on it currently.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20041109080433.html
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/AboutAMD/0,,51_52_9999_10000,00.html
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/AboutAMD/0,,51_52_9999_10002,00.html
"YOu are are a sucker with no knowedge.. another "Ph"ony like Sharikou PhD "Ph"ony "D"octorate."
Haha! It seems to me so far you're the clueless one here, as are most of the Intel zealots here, so be it. A man who claims knowledge without any facts or evidence to back them up is a fool and the burden of proof is now ON YOU. Again, where are your facts now??? In Fantasy land? My advice is to start reading up on someone else's blog who knows what's really going on like Scientia. I enjoy reading some of Sharikou's stuff sometimes, but he is rather overdramatic/overexaggerating with some things.
Well enough hazing you kiddies for now, I'm off to do some real work, tootles chumps! Say hi to the fairies in the Intel Fantasy land for me har har! X^D
"lou ciefer said...
Otherwise you wouldn't be so pissed off about Sharikou's comments/viewpoints I suspect."
Actually - what pisses me off about his comments and viewpoints is 90% of them aren't based in reality, and above all of that, he's a liar. Period. Liars have *no* credibility.
There are no tecnical merits to most of what he says, he makes up math to suit his needs, and he lies about having a ph. d.
The last is all that is necessary to discredit everything he says to any person with any amount of intelligence.
I comment because I enjoy heckling lying loser asshats like this. Immature? You bet. Fun? Absolutely.
WHY IS IT THAT everything AMD touches loses money:
Dell, SUN, ATI,Lenovo, Acer, Benq, Tyan, Asus, SiS, all channel customers. And now Chartered Semi:
http://roborat64.blogspot.com/2007/04/amd-brings-down-another-company.html
Meanwhile Intel has Apple, Microsoft, Google earning wad loads of cash.
It must suck to be an AMD fanboy today. It's either you're having case of EARNINGSOPHOBIA or some form of BENCHMARKOPHOBIA. Symptoms include bashing an analyst, a tech website or making a silly claims benchmarks are stupid because AMD is losing. Worst of all, the sickness makes the AMD cheerleader speak in future tense as the desire to live in the present drives them to the edge.
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=7036
AMD's Large Debt Mounting Up Fast
In July of last year, AMD and ATI merged to form one of the largest semiconductor companies. The cost of the acquisition was an enormous burden for AMD: $5.4 billion USD. Analysts at the time said that the acquisition would be a bad move for AMD, noting that the chip company would be better off plunking the large amount of cash in other core businesses like micro processors.
Of the $5.4 billion that it took to purchase ATI, AMD borrowed roughly $2.5 billion in loans and combined with $1.2 biillion common stock. The acquisition not only cost AMD much of its available principle but also left it in heavy debt. At the time, AMD did not disclose plans of how it would pay off the debt. In fact, two months before the confirmed acquisition of ATI, AMD announced that it would be spending $5.8 billion USD into the development of fabs in Dresden, Germany.
Last week, AMD announced that it will offer Convertible Senior Notes to investors in an attempt to raise roughly $2.2 billion. However, unlike common stock purchases, Convertible Senior Notes put AMD further into debt -- in this case, another $2.2 billion USD. Using Convertible Senior Notes, investors profit since the notes can be converted to common stock once AMD is performing well.
Using Convertible Senior Notes, AMD can receive usable cash now, but not have to worry about paying back its investors until its common stock reaches a predefined price. In this case, AMD set the conversion point to be $42.12 USD per share but its current price is roughly $14. In the catastrophic event that AMD goes bankrupt, Convertible Senior Notes take priority over other debts and thus bond investors are guaranteed the return on their investment.
With excellent market performance from rival Intel, AMD posted a painful first quarter loss of $611 million USD this year. AMD is now left with roughly $1.1 billion in the bank; a figure that has analysts worried.
Nicholas Aberle, Senior Vice President of Equity Research, Caris Company, states, "AMD is still spending a good clip. Without borrowing the company could run out of cash by late Q3, early Q4." Arberle adds, "[AMD] needed to raise capital just to keep the doors open."
AMD's debt is mounting up fast. AMD needs to borrow even more cash to pay off its old debt. AMD can forget about the FABs in Germany and New York.
AMD BK 2Q'08
poke ..the copy & paste Intel PR said ....AMD BK 2Q' 08
Well it seems like you desperately want AMD to go down.. All those who wish the same ...raise your hands ...and don’t Even bother posting here anymore. Just hang on to your stupid thoughts! I am sure.. unlike you, your bosses at the Intel mgmt is spending sleepless night these days ... they have ran out of most tricks that they can play by the rules. Just look at the codenames bandied at the last china IDF ..
They will all be caught pants down when the brutal assault by AMD happens!!
"Well it seems like you desperately want AMD to go down.."
Pot...Kettle. Kettle...pot.
Glad you two have now met.
WHY IS IT THAT everything AMD touches loses money:
Dell, SUN, ATI,Lenovo, Acer, Benq, Tyan, Asus, SiS, all channel customers. And now Chartered Semi:
http://roborat64.blogspot.com/2007/04/amd-brings-down-another-company.html
Meanwhile Intel has Apple, Microsoft, Google earning wad loads of cash.
It must suck to be an AMD fanboy today. It's either you're having case of EARNINGSOPHOBIA or some form of BENCHMARKOPHOBIA. Symptoms include bashing an analyst, a tech website or making a silly claims benchmarks are stupid because AMD is losing. Worst of all, the sickness makes the AMD cheerleader speak in future tense as the desire to live in the present drives them to the edge.
It must also suck to be so concerned about a company (or companies) that isn't paying you. Or maybe you do work for Intel.
GET A LIFE!!!
People...
If you looked at AMD's press release... "up to a 50 percent advantage in floating point performance and 20 percent in integer performance... at the same frequency". This is now with SPECcpu_2006, as oppsed to SPECcpu_2000, why is it that you are so impressed?
All you have to do is look at the results for SPECfp 2006, you will see that AMD without K10 is already about 40% faster than the Xeon 5355, look here(5355) and here(8220), then scale down the AMD system to 2.66 and you get a score of about 86.7, compare that against Intel's 60.9 and we have 40%, so in actuallity we are talking about a 10% gain in FP performance.
Also...
To have a 20% advantage at 2.66GHz AMD will have to score about 110 in SPECint 2006.
Here is the problem, looking at SPECint 2006 for the AMD 8220SE, we have 98.3 at 2.8GHz, scale it down to 2.66 and we get 93.4, now to score 110 in SPECint that would be an increase of about 20% over K8, and the main problem here is that Intel's Cloverton at 3.0GHz should score about 110 as well, this is not Penryn.
So with rough figures we are seeing K10 about 10% faster in SPECfp and about 20% faster SPECint when compared to K8.
The point to focus on is that this performance will now fit in a 2P system, but these numbers are not as great as many would have you believe.
Or is AMD not telling the whole truth, and they have more performance than they are claiming...
If you see an error please point it out, it is not my intention to mislead anyone with these numbers, but to put AMD's claims in perspective.
Financially speaking
It seems a lot of posters are concerned about AMD’s mounting debt. In business, banks do not loan money to companies they think can’t service the debt. Although bad loans seem common it’s not the norm. Look at how often Level-3 borrows and know one even cares because they have proven their ability to service the debt and continue to grow. AMD is at the beginning of a new product cycle and won’t see a return on investment for a few quarters. Obviously, the bankers are expecting AMD to grow. AMD is competing against a 300 pound gorilla which is an unenviable task that requires a lot of cash.
I would suggest for AMD to hire a few paid pumpers like Tom & Anand tech to herd the sheep, which is a very cost effective marketing form.
In business, banks do not loan money to companies they think can’t service the debt.
And from what la la place do you come from. Every bank has reservers set aside for bad loans. In the history of banking and finance some of the largest financial meltdowns have been for bad loans.
Get a clue dude.. as you have none.
Oh yes you also believe that business shouldn't be focused on making money or having a strategy that in the long term is viable.. Can't wait to see your balance sheet..
Oh Lou ieeeeee Lou ieeeeeeeeee
Poor Lou ieeeee Lou ieeeeeeeeeee
You're inablity to digest what I've told you makes it it worthless to take the time and expand on all your confusion; Charter, immersion, technology, IBM, APM, Copy Exactly, Netburst and why it was Netbust. It is your employer that I pity as you are in la la land what "real" work pray tell do you do? You a "Ph"ony "D"octorate too?
"Well enough hazing you kiddies for now, I'm off to do some real work, tootles chumps! Say hi to the fairies in the Intel Fantasy land for me har har"
Pity them INTEL fairies, the ones that made 1.6 billion. The ones that gained 5% market share back to 85+%. The ones on track to launch Penrym this year and have 4 45nm factoriies cranking. The ones with 4 65nm cranking C2D. The ones with 3 90nm cranking chipsets. Damm what a bunch of fairies making money hand over fist. You are right Lou ieeeee....... you better get back to work instead of living in www.fantasy land of the "Ph"ony "D"octorate!
This comment has been removed by the author.
I would suggest for AMD to hire a few paid pumpers like Tom & Anand tech to herd the sheep, which is a very cost effective marketing form.
Absolutely! Benchmarks don't matter, or are obviously flawed. Benchmarks don't reflect real world usage of a CPU. Either that or Intel has paid off all the tech sites!
Funny how when benchmarks and results showed AMD processors in a positive light there was no problem, in fact AMD fans would point to these benchmarks and declare that AMD processors are superior.
So if K10, was by some miracle, faster, and the review sites showed that and the benchmarks reflected that, could we claim that benchmarks are false and do not matter? Or that AMD has paid off all the tech sites? lol!
The excuses these AMD fanboys come up with are getting funnier and funnier!
Debt is a good thing now?! AMD has billions and billions of debt and is burning cash awfully quickly. Apple has $12bn in cash. Zero debt. Are you suggesting they're in a bad position to due a lack of debt?!
Suggesting AMD can reach parity with Intel on process nodes is wishful thinking. Current rumors have it that Penryn will be hear in July. That's right, 45nm products available and in quantity by July. Intel will have two 45nm fabs cranking out Penryn CPUs this year and two more coming online next year. Just to remind the AMD fanboys, Intel's 45nm process is high-k, and is the most advanced processing technology on the planet. AMD has reduced Capex funding by $500m so Fab 30 won't transition to a 300mm toolset before the end of next year. Until then, enjoy your 90nm processors. Since no one will want 90nm CPUs once K10 is here AMD will have a ton more of inventory.
AMD, running out of cash, losing market share like crazy, raising inventory and debt!
Intel, raking in profits, delivering new architectures and process nodes every two years, alternating. Rising market share too. If Intel's current rate of taking market share from AMD continues AMD would have only 1% of market share left are Q4'07.
R600 is prefragged by Nvidia's 8800 GTX. The Ultra is just the icing on the cake. Nvidia spent ~$500m developing G80 and it shows. Cutting edge performance and available for six months now.
Since it's usually between a year and two months a year and six months when Nvidia releases a new Geforce line, I estimate roughly that we will see the Geforce 9 in the fast half of 2008.
In the meantime they'll likely shrink G80 to 65nm. This should allow for greater clockspeeds and it should be much cheaper to produce. Producing the world's fastest and most advanced GPU on 90nm makes for a large die size. I am sure Nvidia is eager to reduce that size somewhat.
It goes without saying that AMD will BK. Hector Ruiz got cocky with K8 and totally underestimated the Core Micro Architecture. Now AMD is bleeding cash and market share, and with Penryn arriving this year their BK is inevitable.
AMD BK Q2'08.
"People's real experience is far more trust worthy than the results by paid pumpers such as Anand and Tom, whose bread on the table depends on Intel's pay outs."
How's this for real world experience. I own Athlon64 X2 3800+, 4400+, 4800+ and an E6600, X6800 and QX6700.
No matter how I slice it the Athlon64 is not faster at anything, per clock then my Core 2 based processors. Even Sciencemark (albeit close) is still faster on the Core 2's.
That's a Users realworld experience.. oh but wait I'll go even further. My AMD rigs...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v51/ElMoIsEviL/Athlon64%20Pics/DSC01905.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v51/ElMoIsEviL/Athlon64%20Pics/DSC01459.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v51/ElMoIsEviL/Athlon64%20Pics/DSC00853.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v51/ElMoIsEviL/Work%20Area/DSC02078.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v51/ElMoIsEviL/Work%20Area/DSC02023_resize.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v51/ElMoIsEviL/Work%20Area/DSC02011_resize.jpg
It must suck to be an AMD fanboy today...
the khaleaf said: "It must also suck blah blah... GET A LIFE!!!"
I must have struck a nerve mwahahaha!
Looks like the channel is ignoring AMD again:
http://roborat64.blogspot.com/2007/04/amd-continues-to-sell-poorly.html
How's this for real world experience. I own Athlon64 X2 3800+, 4400+, 4800+ and an E6600, X6800 and QX6700.
Wow. That's a lot of awesome computers! I have an Athlon 64 X2 4200+ (Socket 939) and two Core 2 rigs, an E6600 and a Q6600.
I have yet to find any intel cpu and platform that saves any energy compared to AMD.
The only reason to switch to 65nm die is to save energy consumption.
My AMD 4800 65nm cpu and amd platform run 44 watts of power in idle and 47 watts while surfing this blog or the internet and 104 watts when both cores are running 100%.
My e6600 on a intel platform sucks 80 watts while idle and 90 watts while surfing this blog and 106 watts when both cores are at 100% usage.
For all practical purposes intel systems suck twice the power as AMD 65nm builds.
There would be no reason for anybody to use a intel cpu and platform over a energy saving AMD cpu and platform.
In fact intel c2d users are destroying planet earth with there continual overuse of energy.
A intel d805 on a intel platform draws 112 watts at idle and 165 watts while surfing the net and 188 watts with both cores at 100% usage.
Intel has no history of efficient energy platforms and cpus, never has and neverwill.
Save planet earth and buy AMD 65nm solutions so we have some power left for tomorrow.
Hector deserves more money since he is saving the planet we live on.
Want to save energy turn your computer, router and wirelss of at the end of the day.
About every hypocrite I know makes noise about energy but never turns the lights or computer off when they leave the room.
Also get your fat wife out of that SUV and stop her from driving to starbucks to get a latte every day. That'll save more energy then your PentiumD uses in a year.
Lex
“And from what la la place do you come from. Every bank has reservers set aside for bad loans. In the history of banking and finance some of the largest financial meltdowns have been for bad loans.
Get a clue dude.. as you have none.”
So, it looks like you have already concluded the 2.2 billion in senior notes was a bad deal and the holders were stupid and intend to use their reserves they set aside for bad loans.
You are very sharp Lex, now I have a clue. I was thinking the purchasers of the notes maybe know something you don’t.
Btw Lex, I’m a share holder in the most profitable bank in Calif. Percentage wise and we’ve never had a bad loan in the five years of existence.
elmoisevil
How's this for real world experience. I own Athlon64 X2 3800+, 4400+, 4800+ and an E6600, X6800 and QX6700.
No matter how I slice it the Athlon64 is not faster at anything, per clock then my Core 2 based processors. Even Sciencemark (albeit close) is still faster on the Core 2's.
Now you see, THAT'S a fanboy statement. Claiming Core 2 is superior than X2 in any shape or form not only is an act of hearesy, but an act of FUDism.
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