Analysis on IT trends and competitive strategies, with emphasis on micro processors, computer systems and networks. Based on latest news, backed up with real data, this site intends to provide a true and realtime picture of the fast changing IT landscape. This journal strives to be accurate on facts and sharp on criticisms. You may email your opinion to sharikou@yahoo.com or post comments here, be cool and intelligent.
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INQ reported this story. You like Intel inside? Be disappointed when you find your kid can't use your Intel desktop or notebook to play games like Lego Star Wars or RollerCoaster. Intel graphics looks like crap and generates errors even at low settings.
posted by Sharikou, Ph. D. @ 11/10/2006 07:35:00 AM
49 Comments:
I wonder why didn't they use soem ATI IGP. Perhaps they are not good enough compared to NV's :)
Wow. Shakira is so intelligent he found out that integrated graphics don't do well when running intense 3D games like Lego Star Wars and RollerCoaster Tycoon 3. Just because they're kid games doesn't mean they're easier for a computer to render.
Now that Shakira has exposed Intel integrated graphics they're going to BANKRUPT!!! Alienware will stop using integrated graphics with this new information. Good job Shakira, very intelligent.
Wow! Really!? There are no errors, that's just plain FUD. Yes, it's true that Intel intergrated graphics do the pixel shader calculations by the CPU.
I wonder why I need to say this over and over and over again... Intel intergrated GPUs are NOT DESIGNED FOR GAMES.
Anyone who is even remotely interested in playing games will run a video card, even if it is a cheap 7300 GT.
Since you enjoy really comparing crappy intergrated video solutions, it's worth noting that none of Ati (AMD)'s intergrated GPUs support DX9 fully. None of them can handle pixel shader 3. Even Intel's GMA X3000 can handle that, even if it is done3 in software. Nvidia's does it the right way - in hardware.
Yes, and it performs horribly on adult games as well. What Charlie didnt emphasize enough was the following
-Lego2 StarWars and the Sims Series occupy 4 out of the top 10 selling games in America.
-while in XP, 3D performance is important for games, in Vista, 3D IS THE EXPERIENCE.
Where does that leave someone who bought an Intel system and has to upgrade to Vista? What does "Vista Capable" mean on an Intel platform?
In the end, users should look for systems with graphics solutions from ATI or NVidia and stay away from any system with Intel graphics.
Intel runs at ½ frame rate, looks like crap and cost $100 more, can’t wait to get one.
Intel, what was you thinking about when you released this crap? Most likely they figured know one would notice. They need more marketing to cover this up.
Question for Intel fans; which off the shelve PC should I purchase? Hummm.
Just waiting for the arguements the intel fanboys will have to counter this one. I think this is a solid arguement for the average consumer not to buy conroe. The average consumer doesn't overclock either, so non-gaming performance is about the same, the consumer gets better graphics and saves some money in the process.
Won't stop me from getting a conroe, but it will stop 80% of potential PC buyers, which is the point Sharikou is trying to make. Now I'm not trying to say that OMG intel will go bankrupt now, but I am trying to say that if you think Conroe burries AMD you are dead wrong and these two system comparisons prove it.
Yesterday I saw a PC advertisement and they were selling a PC with an AMD 5000+ for $150 dollars less than the same system with an E6300. Now tell me, which system should average joe buy and which one is he going to buy: AMD on both counts
Here is what Intel says about the chip on there own website;
“Desktop PC platforms based on the
Intel® G965 Express Chipset, combined with either the Intel® Core™2 Duo processor or Intel® Pentium® D processor, deliver innovative capabilities and usages for digital home consumers. Exciting improvements expand digital home capabilities, while enabling lower power and quieter systems.”
Can you believe Intel calls it “innovative capabilities”
I usually don't read the Inquirer too often, especially after their hypes on Z-RAM, reverse hyperthreading, and K8L. But this one is interesting to read.
I have to say, though, that none of these deficiency will matter to Intel fanboys. They will gladly pay for Intel's C2D for poorer experience, only because it's, oh my, Core 2!!!, and all those websites reviewed it so well...
"Question for Intel fans; which off the shelve PC should I purchase? Hummm."
If you intend to play any games then be sure to get a real GPU, not some crappy IGP. They all suck bigtime, only some of them suck more :)
I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing the point. Even if the non intel system was playing at 30 fps, thats nothing to get excited about. That is not a gaming solution. If a salesperson directs someone to an integrated system after they tell them that they are planning on playing games, that person is not doing there job.
An Intel "fanboy" is not buying a Core 2 with integrated graphincs to play games.
When most people are ripping mp3's or dvd's, Core 2 is far superior.
Charlie took the time to rip Intel but not state the obvious that the comparison is the "midget wrestling" of graphics comparison. Its fun to look at, but its not serious.
The POINT is; almost every pc in America has a few games in it even if you don’t have kids. SUPERpi isn’t a game people like to play. Read and comprehend the words OFF THE SHELF.
I use my computer for more than just balancing my check book.
Btw, my neighbor says his Conroe sucks with Realpayer on the internet and we both have Adelphia and video down loads works fine on my AMD.
Conroe is not the problem. Intel graphics processors are the problem. They suck of course - any IGP sucks.
Anyone that is serious about games however, will buy a separate video card regardless of whether the CPU is AMD or Intel. Salespersons understand this and will without question offer or recommend an add in card regardless of what the buyer is getting. If you look at most advertising, most builders will always add on a video card unless it's a low end system, in which case you get what you get.
By the way, Vista is NOT 3D inherently. It is an option. Any modern IGP will handle Vista (just like XP), but if you want to go the extra step for 3D that's up to you.
The POINT is; almost every pc in America has a few games in it even if you don’t have kids. SUPERpi isn’t a game people like to play. Read and comprehend the words OFF THE SHELF
for sure. A Core 2 Duo with IGP may not be able to play 3D pinball at highest setttings.
You guys are retarded do you think your AMD processors will do better when paired with an Integrated graphics solution. Let me see your FX62 run FEAR with an ATI IGP and then let me hear you talk.
IGP is not meant for intense gaming, it was NEVER targetted to replace the X1900s and 7900s of the world. But for most home based users who do not game and office users.
When vista comes out the IGP will be updated to handle vista's requirments but dont expect 8800GTX performance out of them.
Stop being so retarded ALL IGPS SUCK NOT JUST INTEL. STOP GIVING OUT TRASH YOU PHD OF RETARDS!!!!
"A Core 2 Duo with IGP may not be able to play 3D pinball at highest setttings."
Several year old Centrino laptop could do it nicely:)
"Where does that leave someone who bought an Intel system and has to upgrade to Vista? What does "Vista Capable" mean on an Intel platform?"
http://www.forrester.com/Research/Document/Excerpt/0,7211,40463,00.html
Question - will the 965 even be around in it's current incarnation when Vista actually starts making a dent in the market? And if you are an early adopter or are actually upgrading to Vista you won't go the extra mile and get (or already have) a graphics card?
"Intel runs at ½ frame rate, looks like crap and cost $100 more, can’t wait to get one."
"They will gladly pay for Intel's C2D for poorer experience, only because it's, oh my, Core 2!!!, and all those websites reviewed it so well..."
And they may actually buy a video card... do you have a video card in your computer? They may actually also do something other than 3D games, or maybe buy a 975 or Nvida based IGP?
"Btw, my neighbor says his Conroe sucks with Realpayer on the internet and we both have Adelphia and video down loads works fine on my AMD."
Yeah this sounds believable... must be the CPU unable to keep up with Realplayer?
G965 also incompatible with the most popular game titles.....
http://www.intel.com/support/graphics/intelg965/sb/cs-023018.htm
Green doesn't mean quality either. Wow, it really sucks!
"Anyone who is even remotely interested in playing games will run a video card, even if it is a cheap 7300 GT."
That's such a dumb statement. 85% of consumers play games and when they want to buy a system, they go to BestBuy and buy a system with IGP. Look at most of the top 20 games at Amazon.com......
Many "real gamer" titles but also:
Sims, Nancy Drew, Crazy Machines, Lego Star Wars 2, Sims 2 expansion pack, Sim City 4, Zoo Tycoon, Sims 2 Happy Holiday, Sims 2 glamour life.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/videogames/12508701/ref=pd_ts_c_th_head/002-6536172-2640029
Mainstream gamers, the 85%, don't upgrade their cards.
Intel integrated graphics dont just fail to run games, they cant run google earth either.
Intel platform problems are many and deep and have kept intel from selling very many conroes, core2s, supercharged pentium 3s.
Intel is drowning in a 5 billion dollar inventory of core2 thanks to its many platform problems.
For $50 bucks you can buy a AMD AM2 stable platform that runs ddr2 800 and has ATI graphics onboard which will run all games and google earth, intel does not have anything to compete with this super performing super saving platform.
Intel really deserves to go BK after 5 years of bad decisions.
Only intel would supercharge a pentium 3 to try and save there failing company.
Intel refuses to give good value for the dollar and that is why they are steadily slipping under.
AMD is offering super performance with super pricing providing super value for the end users.
Intel only has bait and switch technology with price steps too many and too expensive for anyone to afford.
Very few end users run benchmarks but you can be sure they run games and google earth.
AMD best buy, best performance and best for end users, best performance per dollar.
This issue is most relevant in the notebook market. IGPs take a lot less power, and are a lot cheaper to incorporate into notebooks - you can't just buy an off-the-shell notebook and "drop" a dedicated GPU into it if you're the Vista-type. There is the argument that Vista can still run on today's slow IGPs if you turn off the 3D interface settings. But if one were to do that... then why would one get Vista in the first place? My understanding is that the majority of improvements in the actual user experience of Vista are in the graphics. It is unfortunate that by attempting to take a step forward in the "features" of their IGP, Intel has taken a step backward in their performance. ATI did the right thing by working on a faster IGP without wasting time and dev. costs and adding features like SM 3.0. SM 3.0 isn't needed for Vista's graphical interface... only for more recent games... which no one would bother trying to run on any IGP in the first place. : )
Truth is, the industry has known about the anemic GPI problem since July of 06. What is hard to believe is Intel continued on with production, knowing full well the consumer was getting screwed.
Worse yet, Intel also new Vista was 64-bit and is still pumping 32-bit out like popcorn.
It should be apparent to those who favor Intel products that there is a problem with the architecture and the roadmap.
Intel is technologically challenged at the moment and needs to keep the share holders happy, so they keep cranking out patches to amp the stock price. There was a time when Intel was ahead of the curve and the stock price took care of its self.
In the past Intel relied on its production skills in times of trouble, but that won’t work this time. There’re already producing too much of the wrong stuff with warehouses full of yesteryears silicon.
Intel is a capable company with a great marketing arm and I have full confidence that Intel can get back in the game soon.
One problem that has not been noted is the bloatware that comes on a system. Dell's Blog and others can say that the bloatware doesn't slow a system down very much out of the box, but I have seen systems run three times as fast after a fresh install.
Not sure how much that affects things for most consumers, but I know many that have had a system for a couple of years and never been reformatted. The system has had every toolbar, google, MSN, don't get me started on the Yahoo pager email client thing.
All IGPs still suck though.
AMD best buy, best performance and best for end users, best performance per dollar.
Ok, let's check this out for ourselves, shall we?
When you say 'best performance' you must be referring to AMD's fastest processor:- The FX 62. We'll compare this to the Core 2 Extreme X6800. Oops. The X6800 is faster. Even Sharikou now admits that. That makes it a fact! :-P
When you say 'best for end users', what could this possibly mean? My mother wouldn't care if she has an AMD or an Intel processor in her PC. She just wants it to work. Neither are best for an end user:- clearly a tie.
Now for your 'best performance for dollar' claim. We know that due to the enchantments in the Core 2 core, it's more efficient per MHz than the Athlon 64 series. K8L will surely turn the tables, but this is a while off yet. So we have the E6600 (2.4Ghz) that can perform right on par with the FX-62 (2.8Ghz). It may even be a bit faster, but for this comparison we'll say they're equal. Now for the price:- The E6600 is $312 on Newegg, whilst the FX 62 is $699. So with Intel you can get the same performance, for half the price. That's a clear win for Intel.
Now back to your original claim:- That AMD is the 'best buy'. We've just seen that Intel has fastest processors. They also have the processors that can match AMD's best whilst costing less than half. Sorry. Looks like Intel is a better buy to me.
"Won't stop me from getting a conroe, but it will stop 80% of potential PC buyers, which is the point Sharikou is trying to make"
So, I guess you are as a big of an idiot as sharikou.. 80% of people won't look for that kind of graphics.. Only high end gamers would..
Can you believe Intel calls it “innovative capabilities”
Can you believe Sharikou is a PhD
Dr PhD is so smart...
What do you expect from a chip that is both your North Bridge and graphics togather for what 30-40 bucks. Why would you expect it to perform like a 399, 199, or even a 99 graphics accelerator.
Dr PhD beside beating your meat what's your point. This is the chip that goes with your 399 PCs. If you are getting a 999 or above PC you'd be a fool not to have a standalong graphics card with at least 128M of memory!
What intelligence, what logic, what a deduction. Its no wonder he is Sharikou PhD LOL
"Won't stop me from getting a conroe, but it will stop 80% of potential PC buyers, which is the point Sharikou is trying to make"
So, I guess you are as a big of an idiot as sharikou.. 80% of people won't look for that kind of graphics.. Only high end gamers would..
If you could just read. 80% of people buy IGP's, and given the store demos which show the AMD system's graphical superiority and the cheaper price of AMD system as I pointed out in my example, they would get the AMD system. The rest, the 20% who know more about computers or are gamers will buy conroe and get a dedicated video card. Some of these people will overclock. But back to the 80% of people that just play yesteryears games, run google earth and want a shiny vista experence besides the regular tasks they perform with their computers, how are they not getting a better deal with AMD? This 80% of the population would be better of with AMD at this point simply because of the integrated graphics. Even CPU price/performance is often in favour of the AMD system as my example demonstated (E6300 vs 5000+)
If there is one thing that is most true about this blog, this is it. All the bankrupt this, bankrupt that along with conroe's inferior IPC vs K8 is just Sharikou being bitter. But on this subject, he has hit the nail right on the head.
anonymous said:
"What do you expect from a chip that is both your North Bridge and graphics togather for what 30-40 bucks. Why would you expect it to perform like a 399, 199, or even a 99 graphics accelerator"
Except, an integrated graphics chipset on Nvidia/ATI doesn't cost more than Intel's and outperforms Intel's. They run Vista with all the new bells and whistles and in most "mainstream" games, they actually do a decent job.
So why pay the same for an Intel solution that underperforms?
That was precisely the article's point!
ps answer: Because Intel hard bundles Centrino.
OMG..Intel is the market share leader in graphics. I couldnt believe my eyes. I did a google search and here is what I found.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20060731234259.html
So Intel is the graphics market share leader and their graphics suck. Why don't the magazines make a bigger deal about this? Why do and OEMs or retailers sell this crap? It must be the Intel threats and/or their ad dollars.
I’m tried of the twisted logic of those trying to defend Intel’s inept offerings. Facts from the industries best and brightest doesn’t seem to have any effect on their thought process. Its daunting how those that defend Intel at any cost regardless of the facts keeps up there relentless barrage of propaganda.
Example: Intel’s G965 embedded graphics sucks big time. They defend the indefensible. They also defend FSB, 32-bit, P3 architecture just to name a few. There is no future in the fore mentioned prehistoric collection of bad ideals. Intel even admits to moving away from there existing architecture in the near future, but do the lemmings get it? No.
When Intel comes out with some innovative silicon, I’ll be the first one in line.
I’m blown away by the Intel cult mentality. The graphics issue proves ignorant devotion. Can’t they see that millions of customers just got phucked and Intel knew it all along?
Wtf is wrong with you guys.
Conroe is at the end of its life cycle already! Vista has been released. The day has finally come for Intel-ies to fall on there swords.
“ I wonder why I need to say this over and over and over again... Intel intergrated GPUs are NOT DESIGNED FOR GAMES.’”
Wow, even the cheapest off the shelf AMD can play games with quality graphics. What was Intel’s GPU designed for? Quiken? How cool is that, a dual core that can run Quiken.
Intel fanboys need another issue. The real bench mark would be SUPERpi in 3D, and then these guys might see the problem. Real world apps need more than just large cache.
Wow, even the cheapest off the shelf AMD can play games with quality graphics. What was Intel’s GPU designed for? Quiken? How cool is that, a dual core that can run Quiken.
Really? Have you tried a game like Oblivion on your beloved integrated graphics? Let me know how well it runs! You'll be struggling to get 30fps on the lowest detail settings running on the lowest possible resolution.
Tell me, is that your idea of playing games with "quality graphics"!?
In the meantime someone with a cheap 7300 GT that would be over 5x as fast can run the game at 1024x768 with the details raised a few notches. It's certainly not going to be like running the game on a GF 8800 GTX, but it would be a LOT better than the intergrated graphics.
Intel fanboys need another issue. The real bench mark would be SUPERpi in 3D, and then these guys might see the problem. Real world apps need more than just large cache.
AMD fanboys need to read the full reviews:- Intel wins in everything except ScienceMark. But, of course, SuperPi was a fine benchmark when AMD was winning on it. Now, who cares? It's clearly been tampered with to give better scores on Intel hardware! rofl.
Have you noticed that Sharikou now only posts about how Ati integrated graphics are faster than Intels? Well I suppose he can't very well post that Core 2 kicks ass ... and that the only thing the Athlon 64 has going for it is an on-die memory controller. He also couldn't admit that his previous "estimates" were totally wrong. Massive operational losses in Q3 '06? I believe Intel posted 1.4bn in profits for that quarter! He also couldn't admit that 4 x 4 is vaporware while Intel has Quad core processors out there. An Intel 2P server with 2x Quad Core processor give a 4P Opteron server a run for it's money. How that's for "value for money"!?
You can keep your Athlon 64 and suffer with crappy performance in everything. I'll keep my Core 2 Duo and enjoy faster games, faster video encoding, faster Photoshop... faster EVERYTHING!
Yo BK fans..
I'd like to super size it.
Get to it man... I'm tried of your flogging of AMD and all that isn't INTEL.
Pss did you know INTEL is the biggest semiconductor company. Its the most profitable, has the best yields, best technology.
Sorry you don't work there.
While you're at it can I get a soft serve too.
Opps its not BK, but Golden Arches... Sorry.. I always get you saturated fat workers confused.
Whats the matter got fired from Best Buy electronics for flogging crappy AMD hardware?
Here are a few sound bites for you AMD fanboys who know nothing but to flog your inadqueate manhood and CPU.. LOL
From a biased website of course AnandTech...
"With the exception of SSL Encryption and the MySQL database tests, the new Xeon DP simply annihilated the competition. Our most recent data shows that the Xeon 5160 outperforms the best Opteron (2.8 GHz) by 10% (MySQL) to 60% (LAMP), while presenting 33% lower TDP numbers (80W versus 119W, 65W versus 95W). AMD launched the new Socket F in August, but the current Opterons are not capable of extracting higher performance out of the faster DDR2 DIMMs, leaving AMD no other option than severely reducing the price of their server CPU flagship in the dual socket market."
Got flogged and dropping prices LOL..
“Got flogged and dropping prices LOL..”
Isn’t it odd that the Opteron is now the processor of choice for supper computer builders? (Google AMD Super Computer)
“From a biased website of course AnandTech...”
AnandTech is to Tech what the communist manifesto is to freedom.
My Integrated Graphics Card runs World OF Warcraft at relativly high settings just fine. Eat Me Sharky.
Dr PhD beside beating your meat what's your point. This is the chip that goes with your 399 PCs.
His point is, for the same price point, you could have had a better performaing hardware and definitely not of Intel IGP.
My Integrated Graphics Card runs World OF Warcraft at relativly high settings just fine. Eat Me Sharky.
WoW is heavy on memory; CPU & graphics are not. Try C&C General series, Battle of Middle Earth. The fact is, given the choice of 3 IGPs: Intel, ATI, nVidia, Intel, Intel is the worst.
Here is some interestin news: NVIDIA Preparing G8x Line-Ups, Entering Intel IGP
Jen-Hsun Huang, President and CEO of NVIDIA, announced in the conference call that they're working on Intel IGP solutions, as customer demand is increasing and the merged AMD-ATI is leaving the market, thus creating a void to be filled. They're currently aiming at an introduction date as early as Spring 2007
If you can't do it yourself, outsource :)
Before everyone gets too excited about this story, understand that this is a concentrated FUD campaign from AMD/ATI. They are literally changing their focus to graphics because they are uncompetitive with CPU performance (this is an admitted strategy -- they have a "press campaign" they launched in beginning of October).
As for the "kids games" performance, AMD/ATI hand-picked specific games and game demos to compare based on certain features & performance parameters that Intel graphics does not yet have in their current driver (but is expected shortly).
Before posting these stories, please research the facts. Go to http://support.intel.com/support/graphics/intelg965/sb/CS-023018.htm. That site has a lot of the real data.
“They are literally changing their focus to graphics because they are uncompetitive with CPU performance”
If you want to talk about completive CPU performance how about the just released numbers about how AMD grew 100% in one year in the SUPER COMPUTER numbers. COMPETETIVE PERFORMANCE means calc’s in the teraflop range. Intel is getting its ass kicked big time when your talk’en big iron. Plus, I have been told that most likely growth will continue to accelerate exponentially.
Intel can’t even compete in this arena anymore, can’t scale and the architecture is obsolete, even the Woody.
Now can we go back to graphics, the topic we were on, dude.
LOL..
Remember when it was about the benchmarks.. Opps we don't own the benchmarks anymore..
Lets focus on graphics... Lets buy a 2nd rate graphics company... and spin some FUD about how its about integrated graphics performance.. that sells our chips...
What a bunch of morons them AMD masturbators are..
Sharikou keep it up... YOu are right up ther with them AMDr's
Keep the dribble.. Makes for some fun lunchtime humor..
More BK and exploding laptops and 350K Turdons please!
... does not yet have in their current driver (but is expected shortly)
When they stop driver support on the short-lived i740 which I owned back then, causing heaps of games with glitches, I find it difficult to trust their driver support anymore.
I spent 2hrs downloading Battlefied 2 demo and then I find out no matter what I do this peice of crap isn't going to play it or anything else! Waste of my tiem and money!
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