Athlon 64 x2 4400+ (65watt) for $69 free shipping
Good deal indeed. AMD is truly flooding the market.
posted by Sharikou, Ph. D. @ 5/24/2007 02:23:00 PM
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74 Comments:
Read & weep intelbois....
http://multicore.amd.com/us-en/AMD-Multi-Core/Products/Barcelona.aspx
It just tries to maximise its revenue before e2000 series release and July price drop. After those two highest performing AMD CPU will cost less than $170.
only amd
"Read & weep intelbois...."
I did read the little writings below the performance charts too:
"Dual-CPU Quad-Core AMD Opteron processor estimages based on internal AMD simulations at 2.6GHz."
They are still only simulating the results? Kind of late, isn't it? Wasn't 2.3GHz going to be the max at release and if lucky we'd see 2.5GHz by the end of the year?
Also they are comparing against 2.66GHz Xeon, not against their 3GHz quadcores. Where is that huge performance difference now that Scientia and others were talking about?
Though I'd would like to see base scores also to see if the performance increase is due to better scaling or better core.
and AMD is truly bleeding their profit....
only amd
Woah!! OMG!! BARCELONA!!!
wait.. where are the performance numbers? where are the benchmarks that says K10 trumps Core uarch? where is the availability?
and most importantly...
where is the beef?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Zbm0EuJQkQc
LOL what a "Ph"ony "D"eal from the PhD.
AMD must really be having a hard time selling. They can't move those low power, low peforming CPUs got stuck with all that invetntory that Dell even couldn't move and now the channel don't want it either. Fire sale cents on the dollar.
AMD Q2 and Q3 is looking frightening. Thanks "Ph"ony for confimring again the fact that AMD is going BK in 2008..
For every AMD X2 sold Intel will lose multiple chip sets, cpu, mb and other components. This could likely be a graphics issue to impede Intel.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Is it just me or has this product been removed? If it is sold out then I'm not sure what to think. Either people bought it in minutes and AMD doesn't have enough CPUs to flood the market. My guess is it was simply a typo.
http://shop2.outpost.com/search?cat=-51580&pType=pDisplay
Intel Unveils World's Thinnest Laptop
This is a very nice looking laptop indeed. I would surely consider purchasing one if I could be certain it would not explode in my face.
AMD is flooding the market with chips comparable to the stuff I just flushed down the toilet.
Going by what these chips are selling for, even AMD thinks they're worth just about the same as my waste.
hahahahah great yard sale AMD got going!!!!
This is a very nice looking laptop indeed. I would surely consider purchasing one if I could be certain it would not explode in my face.
I wonder when AMD will release their press statement based on slideshows of an inferior me too version of this which will be a rebadged regular laptop.
ohh did i mention great yard sale AMD got going. HAHAHAHAHAH C2D has reduced the k8 line to garbage. Get used to it barcelona will be selling for the same price when penryn comes out. AMD will be on a constant garage sale.
This is good!
Read & weep intelbois....
http://multicore.amd.com/us-en/AMD-Multi-Core/Products/Barcelona.aspx
More marketing crap from AMD. Meanwhile... Intel is happy to actually sell you a quad core CPU, rather than just talking about them.
AMD's having a yardsale alright. When Intel's July price cuts hit AMD 6000+ will be left to compete with a $163 E6550. All AMD's desktop CPUs will be sold for under $200. Further massive operational losses will then ensue for AMD.
AMD BK Q2'08.
When the E2000 series hits in June you can expect AMD's dual core CPU prices to fall to less than $40. No one will want AMD garbage. They'll have to send all that inventory to the rubbish tip and close up shop!
AMD BK Q2'08.
OK wait a minute a mere couple of posts ago, it was bad for intel to drop prices and flood the market...
Now that AMD is doing it, its great?
Sharidouche Ph(ake)d , leader of the AMD fanbois we salute you!
In other news due to the recent price drops by AMD in a new stunning move AMD has told their engineers to set up stalls in every flea market around the country in order to boost sales.
With their dual cores selling for pennies they are hoping that they can corner and sell to people who go to flea markets every weekend to buy vegetables.
Buy an Athlon X2 4400+ and get two carrots free at the ft. lauderdale swap shop. Buy 2 athlon x2 4400+ and get two carrots AND a free watermelon!!!! Great deals indeed........
AMD is flooding the market. Flooding the market with more CPUs no one wants! Expect AMD to have more inventory this quarter.
Where are all the AMD fanbois i guess they dont want to hear about AMD's latest yard sale.
Feel bad for all the suckers who paid $550 for this garbage when it first came out....
Intel was not affected a lot by their yardsale because thay had something to replace the higher end profit and revenue generators. This is not the same for AMD, at least not for another half a year.
Where are all of the AMD fanbois? Great question! Last I heard their gathering the crow for you to eat in a couple of months. The posts on this blog by the “Intel or Hell” Kool-Aid Drinking Wiz Bangers” is quite impressive, I never thought I would see so much posted content with no apparent discernment or knowledge whatsoever, guess I was wrong. Perhaps I have a different view of the IT world. I see Intel as the leader they are, like Novell. AMD, Well I guess Microsoft would be a fair comparison. I would predict the future market shares by comparison would be the same. (For the Newbies;) http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9020942&pageNumber=3 Don’t know, don’t care if Intel BK’s 2nd Q of 2008, just convinced their 8-Track cartridge approach to current technology wont withstand the tsunami of AMD’s Holography model. Looking forward to serving collected crow, so please all you Intelbot’s, insert foot now.
Ruiz is smart. He is selling $10 crap for $69...
AMD fanbois are idiots!
Where are all of the AMD fanbois? Great question! Last I heard their gathering the crow for you to eat in a couple of months. The posts on this blog by the “Intel or Hell” Kool-Aid Drinking Wiz Bangers” is quite impressive, I never thought I would see so much posted content with no apparent discernment or knowledge whatsoever, guess I was wrong. Perhaps I have a different view of the IT world. I see Intel as the leader they are, like Novell. AMD, Well I guess Microsoft would be a fair comparison. I would predict the future market shares by comparison would be the same. (For the Newbies;) http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9020942&pageNumber=3 Don’t know, don’t care if Intel BK’s 2nd Q of 2008, just convinced their 8-Track cartridge approach to current technology wont withstand the tsunami of AMD’s Holography model. Looking forward to serving collected crow, so please all you Intelbot’s, insert foot now.
AMD's first idiot fanboi to reply to the great yard sale. Want a carrot with that processor sir????
Don’t know, don’t care if Intel BK’s 2nd Q of 2008, just convinced their 8-Track cartridge approach to current technology wont withstand the tsunami of AMD’s Holography model.
You mean the tsunami of power point presentations, wafers and slideshows with estimated performance numbers that AMD is now famous for....that tsunami is taking place rite now.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wow dahaka, someone touched your sweetspot, didn't he?
Anyways I did a littel fun calculation in the mean time.
Barcelona was supposed to be around 40% faster in FP than Conroe. Let's scale those povray results down to one core. That makes 4700/8~=587pix/s for Conroe and 4000/16=250pix/s for Barcelona.
Now if Barcelona is per-core 40% faster than Conroe it should get 587*1.4=822pix/s. That is around 3.288x slower than the advertised numbers.
On AMD homepage it talks about simulated results on 2.6GHz, on release we should see up to 2.3Ghz quads.
If the 40% number is based on 2.6GHz quads then the quads in the benchmark were running at around 2.6/3.288=800MHz. If the 40% number is based on 2.3GHz quads then they were running at around 2.3/3.288=700MHz.
Interesting, isn't it?
...flooding the market
...AND losing money =)
Yep, I like this world
News for all to read with a open business mind about how Intel has to buy their customers instead of producing a great product as AMD.
http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/
content_type/DownloadableAssets/
AMD-Intel_Full_Complaint.pdf
The truth speaks loudly....
This comment has been removed by the author.
The document seems to be around two years old. Does Intel still have such deals as AMD claims in there?
Are there any big global CPU sellers who do not sell AMD CPUs?
Looks like Intel thought of "Fusion" a couple years before AMDead did.
Discussing SSE4:
"The streaming load instruction is a 16-byte aligned load instruction. But interestingly, the results are held in a temporary stream buffer that bypasses the normal cache hierarchy, a high-priority expressway that other data types haven't received. Intel identified the streaming-load instruction as ideal for GPU-CPU sharing, as well as imaging.
"This is an interesting instruction, as it opens the door to new areas of collaboration between CPU and the GPU," said Stephen Fischer, the lead Penryn architect at Intel, during a presentation here. The instruction improves the read buffer from the GPU to the CPU by a factor of eight, he said.
When asked at a lunch panel whether the instruction was a response to AMD's "Fusion," Fischer replied, "I could see where people would say that," he said. "
http://techreport.com/onearticle.x/12532
with a name like only amd would you expect anything else.
That guy's cranium is lodged so far up Ph(ake)s ass he isn't even allowed to think for himself.
Bubba said...
Looks like Intel thought of "Fusion" a couple years before AMDead did.
The idea of a CPU/GPU hybrid has been around for a long, long time. AMD will be the first to implement it. Intel will probably follow.
penix
"The idea of a CPU/GPU hybrid has been around for a long, long time."
Yes, Intel had the idea and first implementations years ago. Though it wasn't such a big deal back then and it didn't reach mass production.
"AMD will be the first to implement it. Intel will probably follow."
From the little information I know so far it seems as AMD will have relatively discrete CPU and GPU combined in one socket. Labarre seems to be a CPU with lots of simple cores with extremely wide SIMD units and some special hardware units for the heavy lifting (texture filtering most likely).
To me personally the description of Labarree screams for ray tracing. If it is true then that would be the biggest innovation in graphics industry since the beginning of computers bringing a whole new more efficient way of doing things.
Also it would explain why Intel has been so interested about it during the last years. They should also have the world fastest software ray tracers, at least that was told by some people who know people who know the stuff :)
The idea of a CPU/GPU hybrid has been around for a long, long time. AMD will be the first to implement it. Intel will probably follow.
You mean Amd will be the first to show it on a slideshow. Intel will release it first and a lil bit after AMD will paper launch it.
Here is what I think.....
Why is AMD not releasing any benchmarks? are they afraid?
The one and only excuse I have seen is that AMD does not want to hurt any K8 sales.....WELL HELLO!!!! they're already hurt.
People are going towards Intel for their needs because AMD won't say anything.
Think about it, If Barcelona is SO GREAT, and they released a few benchmarks....sure some people might not buy the K8s, but they will also hold out on buying from Intel. Thus, AMD could ACTUALLY put a dent in Intel's sale figures as well.
The one and only excuse I have seen is that AMD does not want to hurt any K8 sales.....WELL HELLO!!!! they're already hurt.
People are going towards Intel for their needs because AMD won't say anything.
Think about it, If Barcelona is SO GREAT, and they released a few benchmarks....sure some people might not buy the K8s, but they will also hold out on buying from Intel. Thus, AMD could ACTUALLY put a dent in Intel's sale figures as well.
Nope this kinda logical thinking evades our fake doctor and their fanbois. I think AMD knows this thing is a dud just like all their releases as of late....2900XT, quadfather, 65nm, AM2 they are all garbage....
They are more content in believing in slideshows while shopping for their processors in flea markets..
After all it is easier to believe in fantasy than face the truth.
Intel is a despicable company that has held back the industry for years with it's unjust practices and anti-competitive nature. Their inability to innovate is matched only by the strength of their marketing team, which has managed to brain wash the entire market sector into believing that their inferior product reins supreme. It is evident that their dark shadow of greed and corporate evil has now extended beyond the horizon to all corners of the globe as they attempt to vanquish the righteous OLPC project. Supporting Intel is not only foolish, but hurts the very industry you praise.
Blah blah blah goes Penis...
It is evident that their dark shadow of greed and corporate evil has now extended beyond the horizon to all corners of the globe as they attempt to vanquish the righteous OLPC project.
Never mind the facts that the reviews of the Intel version of the OLPC say it runs better is easier to use and the fact that Intel can easily afford the product and product development where AMD quite simply cannot.
Not to metion that Intel sells actual processors and delivers on time unlike AMD shoving slideshows and wafers and estimated numbers....
Would you like some chicken wings with that AMD processor??
AMD caught lieing about HD 2900XT capabilites; Does not have Avivo HD as claimed.
http://www.techreport.com/onearticle.x/12552
Evil_Merlin said...
Never mind the facts that the reviews of the Intel version of the OLPC say it runs better is easier to use and the fact that Intel can easily afford the product and product development where AMD quite simply cannot.
OLPC is NOT an AMD run project! OLPC is a non-profit company which aims to educate entire nations and help uplift them from poverty. In order for them to achieve their goal, they must be able to make enough profit to cover operation and development costs. Marketing a product at a loss is something that no company is willing to sustain long term.
Intel is using preditory tactics to cripple OLPC. While their product may be superior, it is being sold at a significant loss to compete with OLPC. This is NOT sustainable. Once OLPC is destroyed, Intel will have cornered the market and will either raise prices, or drop the project entirely.
Um, where the fuck did I say it was AMD run?
Oh thats right, no place!
if the product is indeed superior, why should it matter if it's being sold at a loss. Its giving the kids a chance to use something they wouldn't be able to.
So AMD fanbois should be cheering this as it puts a dent in Intel's bottom line.
This comment has been removed by the author.
"AMD caught lieing about HD 2900XT capabilites; Does not have Avivo HD as claimed."
http://www.techreport.com/onearticle.x/12552
Predictable. HD2900XT does not have UVD yet AMD showed PowerPoint slides claiming the HD2900XT to have HD capabilities. AMD fooled all the journalists real well. No wonder why they kept pushing back R600. It's going to be the same with Barcelona. More PowerPoint slide FUD then when it's finally released, people are going to be wondering what happened to the 40% performance advantage over Clovertown went to.
Intel must be having a yard sale also, Fry’s is selling a Compaq sr5050nx (3.0GHz Pentium D Viiv, 1GB, 250GB, Vista Premium)
For $449 after $50 rebate.
http://www.frys.com/product/5194146
Evil_Merlin said...
Um, where the fuck did I say it was AMD run? Oh thats right, no place!
You eluded to it, jackass.
Evil_Merlin said...
if the product is indeed superior, why should it matter if it's being sold at a loss. Its giving the kids a chance to use something they wouldn't be able to.
You miss the point completely. Before you blurt out another ignorant statement, try to use some forward thinking.
OLPC's lifetime goal is to bring 1 billion laptops to the children of the world. In order for this project to be successful, it must to be long term. The product must at least break even or no company will be able to sustain it. The Intel Classmate PC is no where close to breaking even. It is being sold at a $220 loss in an attempt to cripple the OLPC project. I guarantee you, Intel cannot, and is not planning on taking a $220 billion dollar loss.
Unlike Intel, OLPC's business model is completely sustainable. OLPC is being sold at $8 profit. This is enough to recoup investor losses and fund future development. Once volume increases over the next 3 years, OLPC aims to reduce the cost of the unit by over 60%.
OLPC is non-profit company with a noble cause. Intel is the same mindless greedy company it has always been.
Penix, thank you for taking the time to explain the facts of the OLPC. I’m not surprised by the attempts of some to defend Intel’s bad conduct.
On another note, I’m also perplexed as to why AMD doesn’t release a few benchmarks so close to the release date. I suspect AMD has a viable launch plan and we’ll all know soon enough.
ding dong spewed:
OLPC is non-profit company with a noble cause. Intel is the same mindless greedy company it has always been.
Gee, according to Intel's annual charitable contributions reports (I'll let you find them), Intel has donated >90M/year to domestic and global educational initiatives each year since 2001. Numbers available:
2001: 103.2M
2002: 98.9M
2003: 90.2M
2004: 97.8M
2005: 110.6M
So in 5 years, they donated just over half a BILLION dollars to educational charities. How evil was AMD in that time period? I can't find any record on their website.
So in 5 years, they donated just over half a BILLION dollars to educational charities. How evil was AMD in that time period? I can't find any record on their website.
When a Processor company is too busy selling powerpoint presentations to gullible fanbois over actual processors dont expect them to donate much.
I congratulate Intel for its contributions, it is honorable and good; however it doesn’t justify killing OLPC. I’m guessing Intel was making a gesture in good faith and didn’t realize it was interfering with OLPC at the time. Know corporation looks for bad press on purpose. You have to admit it would be despicable if they continue.
I’m sure AMD also contributes the same percentage in the past. This year AMD is broke and has enough tax relief and besides they don’t want to upset the share holders any more than they have to.
OLPC and Classmate are not exactlu the same. OLPC is mainly for countries with really poor people who even doesn't have regular electricity. Classmate needs to at least have electric socket nearby as its battery lasts for a few hour and you can't just crank the wheel to generate more as you can with OLPC.
I'd say that Classmate is for the not-so-poor people in countries like China, India and perhaps even some ex-soviet union members. OLPC on the other hand is for these places where people are really poor, like in most African countries and perhaps some more in China and India.
I'll say again, they are not directly comparable. One is a full blown PC that needs all the same things as regular PC. Other one is specially designed to be extremely durable and wouldn't need being connected to powergrid.
I’m sure AMD also contributes the same percentage in the past. This year AMD is broke and has enough tax relief and besides they don’t want to upset the share holders any more than they have to.
So in other words, now AMD contributes nothing? For shame, AMD for shame.
AMD is a despicable company that has held back the industry with a distinct lack of doing anything useful. Since the start of 2006 AMD has released the following:-
New sockets for all platforms allowing DDR2 support. Two years after Intel. Zero performance increase.
Dual core mobile CPU. Six months later than Intel and slower than Intel.
A 400mhz increase in clockspeed. Start of 2006 with dual core 2.6, now we have dual 3.0.
4x4. Yes this is revolutionary! A dual socket motherboard! Wow!
Then there's the R600 GPU! Seven months late, fails to compete against Nvidia's third fastest GPU. As was pointed out earlier, AMD deceived people with the AVIVO capabilities of the R600.
It's no wonder that AMD will go BK in Q2'08.
So a
AMD THE SMARTER CHOICE when purchasing vegetables.
AMD BETTER BY DESIGN when compared to a carrot.
This has to be good for AMD.
reply
I said earlier:
Don’t know, don’t care if Intel BK’s 2nd Q of 2008, just convinced their 8-Track cartridge approach to current technology wouldn’t withstand the tsunami of AMD’s Holography model.
HEAT said in reply:
You mean the tsunami of power point presentations, wafers and slideshows with estimated performance numbers that AMD is now famous for....that tsunami is taking place right now.
No HEAT, the superior technology I was referring to is below, I guess you had not read this.
http://www.inphase-technologies.com/
The real “Smoke and Mirror” magicians who compare their new product to the competitors’ discontinued product through a tsunami of power point presentations, wafers, and slideshows with estimated performance numbers and then are busted for it would be your guys.
http://content.zdnet.com/2346-10741_22-59008.html
I repeat:
I really do not care what Intel does or does not do, or if they make it or not. The last product I purchased from them was a Pentium I 120MHz chip. I sell and deploy around $100-250K of AMD servers and desktops a year. I do not offer or sell Intel, however I do replace many dissatisfied client’s Intel products. The last one replaced was a desktop purchased a year ago. It could not even play an audio CD; it stopped and sputtered. (Like most cell phones) All the computers I work with are part of a domain with a higher operating overhead than home PC’s. The AMD64 x2 4400+ that I replaced his Intel with has made me a hero once again, and I have received many thanks from this client. I live in the “Real World” not the “Benchmark World.” The problem I have with the Intel CPU is that it is real fast until it reaches “Critical Mass” where it suddenly stops. (Five minutes to open Outlook, I couldn’t connect with Terminal services either.) AMD, however, slows proportionally to the load, and when dealing with an Outlook memory leak putting the CPU at 100% usage recently, I was still able to remote in and fix the problem.
Overall maybe I should sell Intel, I would bill a lot more client hours. I would have to go onsite more of the time, and if they are thinking about upgrading six months later to quad core I would get to sell them a new Mobo and Memory, plus get a big chunk of block time too, because the HAL is incompatible requiring a full backup and a “Bare Metal Restore.” I upgraded my desktop at work last week. I unplugged my two RAID 0 Raptors from my two year old single core 939 pin Mobo, connected them to a new socket AM2 Mobo with DDR2 Mem and x2 4400+ CPU. I powered it on and went back to work without interruption. (XP Pro X64 OS) I didn’t even get the message “Windows Found New Hardware and is Installing Drivers” It just showed “Nvidia RAID Healthy” and booted up windows normally. It would have taken nearly a day to rebuild it with the complexity of our software, or almost a $1000 dollars of otherwise billable time lost.
Show me the money; show me the value in the TCO of Intel, because I haven't found it!
The Doc
Show me the money; show me the value in the TCO of Intel, because I haven't found it!
The Doc
Anyone who builds computers for living can hardly be a doc!
Sheesh! Sharikou has really degraded the value of a PhD. Now any Circuit City Joe claims to have a PhD!
Dr Blog said...
I do not offer or sell Intel, however I do replace many dissatisfied client’s Intel products. The last one replaced was a desktop purchased a year ago. It could not even play an audio CD; it stopped and sputtered. (Like most cell phones) ...
i just stop reading after the above paragraph to have some laugh. i really pity your client, you must have told them it can't play audio because of the Intel CPU ... hahahahah, good try.
dr blog
"The last one replaced was a desktop purchased a year ago. It could not even play an audio CD; it stopped and sputtered."
That's smart. When having an obviously not CPU related problem you rplace the whole box.
"The problem I have with the Intel CPU is that it is real fast until it reaches “Critical Mass” where it suddenly stops"
If you blame CPU in this then I'm really surprised that your superiors still pay you for what every you do. (Five minutes to open Outlook, I couldn’t connect with Terminal services either.)
I'm sorry but from what you just said it is easy to undersatand you do not have enough qualifications to be a hardware support guy, you simply know absolutely nothing about neither hardware nor software problems.
Btw, where did you bought that Ph.D of yours?
Customer: dr. Blog my internet is not working do you think its my ISP??
Dr. Blog: Maam this mite be a serious problem could you tell me what processor you have???
Customer: I dont know its got an Intel sticker in the front.
Dr. Blog: I think we have found the problem. I propose that we replace your entire computer and build a computer based on the AMD processor.
Customer: You think this will fix my internet problem. We dont need to change the entire computer do we??
Dr. Blog: Absolutely...we need to change everything the motherboard, ram, hard drives, video cards anything that came into direct or indirect contact with that Intel processor.
Another satisfied client courtesy of Dr. Blog's work.
These AMD fanbois are getting dumber as the release date for barcelona gets closer. Just amazing....
"i just stop reading after the above paragraph to have some laugh. i really pity your client, you must have told them it can't play audio because of the Intel CPU ... hahahahah, good try."
Once again an Intel guy lives up to his stupidity. Audio CD play with DAE is extremely sensitive to I/O latencies, where the CPU's sustained I/O responsivity does play a major role. AMD platforms simply kick ass over Intel in these regards.
symbiansn said...
Once again an Intel guy lives up to his stupidity. Audio CD play with DAE is extremely sensitive to I/O latencies, where the CPU's sustained I/O responsivity does play a major role. AMD platforms simply kick ass over Intel in these regards.
wow, another 'smarter' one ... who will replace a whole PC if there is a sound/cd problem. :)
good try.
Audio CD's are played at 150kiB/s, there is no way in hell any CPU newer than 386 can't play them.
pointer
"wow, another 'smarter' one ... who will replace a whole PC if there is a sound/cd problem. :)
good try. "
Had to show the junk to his Intel CPU/mb combo altogether. Better for him, and I'll explain to you briefly why so.
ho ho
"Audio CD's are played at 150kiB/s, there is no way in hell any CPU newer than 386 can't play them."
I wasn't referring directly to bandwidth, either. Reading a CD-ROM and extracting audio isn't such a simple thing, it's a real-time application afterall. If you were used to embedded systems you'd know the role that short latencies take and how those are fundamental.
Please consider this subsystem: CD drive (read) -> I/O lines -> RAM (sync buffer) -> I/O lines -> HDD -> RAM (conversion buffer) -> I/O lines -> CPU.
Notice a thing: there are a lot of electromechanical parts in the middle of all these processes, plus the effect of concurrent bus requests by another threads.
Data latency becomes a factor which is unpredictable at most, thus rendering even sophisticated pre-buffers ineffective. Otherwise, compressed audio like MP3 is able to make very efficient use of the buses and buffers, putting burden onto a CPU's processing power. MP3 decoding is very bandwidth-efficient.
When your PC decodes MP3, it eats a short frames each time then de-quantize and expand, which is good in the sense that it masks latency very well. In truth, even Nintendo chose to implement (De-)Quantizer Opcodes and low-latency RAM into their consoles knowing that mechanically-limited CD reads and latency may play nasty tricks very often.
Returning to the point of Audio CD, there's so much data traveling back and forth you'd get constrained somewhere at any given time. A responsive I/O (such as AMD's HT) gets rid of that by making its data packets shorter as possible and by eliminating concurrency wherever appliable.
hoho is spot on. symbiansn is an idiot. I used to listen to audio CDs on a Pentium 133 back more than ten years ago. It's hardly a difficult task for a computer to handle.
Don't forget:- Intel has a seven month lead in quad core CPUs. This lead is only going to extend as AMD continues to delay Barcelona like they did to R600.
Even then "Barcelona is too little too late."
AMD BK Q2'08.
symbiansn said...
I wasn't referring directly to bandwidth, either. Reading a CD-ROM and extracting audio isn't such a simple thing, it's a real-time application afterall. If you were used to embedded systems you'd know the role that short latencies take and how those are fundamental.
Please consider this subsystem: CD drive (read) -> I/O lines -> RAM (sync buffer) -> I/O lines -> HDD -> RAM (conversion buffer) -> I/O lines -> CPU.
Notice a thing: there are a lot of electromechanical parts in the middle of all these processes, plus the effect of concurrent bus requests by another threads.
Data latency becomes a factor which is unpredictable at most, thus rendering even sophisticated pre-buffers ineffective. Otherwise, compressed audio like MP3 is able to make very efficient use of the buses and buffers, putting burden onto a CPU's processing power. MP3 decoding is very bandwidth-efficient.
When your PC decodes MP3, it eats a short frames each time then de-quantize and expand, which is good in the sense that it masks latency very well. In truth, even Nintendo chose to implement (De-)Quantizer Opcodes and low-latency RAM into their consoles knowing that mechanically-limited CD reads and latency may play nasty tricks very often.
Returning to the point of Audio CD, there's so much data traveling back and forth you'd get constrained somewhere at any given time. A responsive I/O (such as AMD's HT) gets rid of that by making its data packets shorter as possible and by eliminating concurrency wherever appliable
wow, another attempts from the smarter one. This round with some technology terms like de-quantize, trying to impress ppl that what he said is true.
anyway, for those that were impressed, here are the links for you
http://www.techspot.com/vb/all/windows/t-39408-Quake4-locks-AMD-system.html
excerpt:
Amd 3000 64bit 939
gigabyte Ga-k8ns ultra
2 gigs of ddr400 running at ddr335
300gig maxtor diamond 10 sata
geforce 6800gt OC
Audigy2 zs
420watt theraltake purepower
To start I would get a game lock up with a sound loop, only way to get out is rest Pc.
you wouldn't this guy should change the AMD system to Intel system, right? :) hahahahha. nice try.
there are more of these:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+source/arts/+bug/11921
etc, you can easily google them with this keyword - "AMD system audio problem" :)
Dude: hey man can i listen to a CD on my computer.
Symbiansn: WHat CPU do u have??
Dude: some computer i picked up from best buys.
Symbiansn: For a high end CPU task like listening to an audio CD you need a K10 with HT3 paired to AM2+ which makes the packets smaller. Nothing else will accomplish this so you will have to wait till next year to listen to your CD.
---------------------------------
Another great moment of AMD fanboi mediocrity
symbiansn
"Please consider this subsystem: CD drive (read) -> I/O lines -> RAM (sync buffer) -> I/O lines -> HDD -> RAM (conversion buffer) -> I/O lines -> CPU."
As was said, nice try but you failed. If you don't know the real sequence how data moves when playing CD music then it makes me highly doubtful you know anything else you tried to explain. In no whay the audio gets to HDD. Also programs read more of the data ahead just in case there might be problems like faulty disk. Also it is more like CD -> CPU -> RAM -> CPU -> sound card. Why does it end in CPU on your description?
Btw, how can you explain that people can watch videos on DVD DVD just fine when there you have around 9.8Mbit/s instead of 150kiB/s. With BD/HD-DVD the bitrate goes several times higher but PCs can still manage to show those images just fine and without stutterin assuming they either have enough CPU power or HW decoding in GPU.
So, please explain how can playing a CD be more taxing on the system than playing a DVD video?
"Otherwise, compressed audio like MP3 is able to make very efficient use of the buses and buffers, putting burden onto a CPU's processing power."
Only difference between CD audio and MP3 is that the data is compressed when being read from disk to CPU for the first time. From there onwards it takes just as much as any audio CD and needs to have the same latencies. I could play MP3s with my P1 166 just fine. Heck, I could even play them on my small Jornada with 200MHz ARM CPU without FPU.
"In truth, even Nintendo chose to implement (De-)Quantizer Opcodes and low-latency RAM into their consoles knowing that mechanically-limited CD reads and latency may play nasty tricks very often."
Wow, you really do not know anything about this, do you?
Low-latency RAM has nothing to do with it. That P1 has dmemory latency about 10 times as high as modern CPUs and 50x less bandwidth but still manages just fine.
Only reason why they have special functions for handling sound in their CPU is that the CPU is rather weak and they want to waste as little processing power as possible on sound.
"Returning to the point of Audio CD, there's so much data traveling back and forth you'd get constrained somewhere at any given time"
... and DVDs work by magic. They do not need HT to achieve smooth playback even though they move a lot more data around than with audio CDs.
Inteler.
"As was said, nice try but you failed. If you don't know the real sequence how data moves when playing CD music then it makes me highly doubtful you know anything else you tried to explain. In no whay the audio gets to HDD. Also programs read more of the data ahead just in case there might be problems like faulty disk. Also it is more like CD -> CPU -> RAM -> CPU -> sound card. Why does it end in CPU on your description?"
No, that isn't wrong. DAE requires extraction of the audio image onto the HDD itself from the buffer before a conversion to Windows-compatible waveform begins. That can be done with the help of DMA, without any intervention from the CPU.
"Btw, how can you explain that people can watch videos on DVD DVD just fine when there you have around 9.8Mbit/s instead of 150kiB/s. With BD/HD-DVD the bitrate goes several times higher but PCs can still manage to show those images just fine and without stutterin assuming they either have enough CPU power or HW decoding in GPU."
DVD movies and audio are compressed then quantized format alike to MP3, thus DVD movies' datagrams are system-efficient and can mask latency as well.
So, please explain how can playing a CD be more taxing on the system than playing a DVD video?
Bud, you don't have notion of what's happening. If the system components stream data too fast it gets out of sync easily. The major problem we have here is real-time execution and synchro between components. CD Audio is more taxing than DVD video in these regards.
Only difference between CD audio and MP3 is that the data is compressed when being read from disk to CPU for the first time. From there onwards it takes just as much as any audio CD and needs to have the same latencies. I could play MP3s with my P1 166 just fine. Heck, I could even play them on my small Jornada with 200MHz ARM CPU without FPU.
Much of the performance issue has to do with the ratio between the size of the original data and the size of converted data. Reading from compressed data then decompressing it later is always more efficient. In the case of CD Audio, thisratio is almost 1:1.
"Wow, you really do not know anything about this, do you?
Low-latency RAM has nothing to do with it. That P1 has dmemory latency about 10 times as high as modern CPUs and 50x less bandwidth but still manages just fine.
Only reason why they have special functions for handling sound in their CPU is that the CPU is rather weak and they want to waste as little processing power as possible on sound."
Older PC's didn't use DAE for playing CD Audio... it was just way too taxing. The CD drive sent analog audio to the sound card instead.
"... and DVDs work by magic. They do not need HT to achieve smooth playback even though they move a lot more data around than with audio CDs.
No, bud. No, bud.
Explaining this to you should be more difficult than AMD convince Intel of the benefits from integrating a memory controller. You're all pretty much of the same.
symbiansn said...
wow, yet another attempt by the 'smarter one', this round is a lengthy one. and out of all those, nothing explain why an audio problem would need a whole system to be changed.
well, another paste here since he avoind those link or just in case he missed it:
http://www.techspot.com/vb/all/windows/t-39408-Quake4-locks-AMD-system.html
excerpt:
Amd 3000 64bit 939
gigabyte Ga-k8ns ultra
2 gigs of ddr400 running at ddr335
300gig maxtor diamond 10 sata
geforce 6800gt OC
Audigy2 zs
420watt theraltake purepower
To start I would get a game lock up with a sound loop, only way to get out is rest Pc.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+source/arts/+bug/11921
you can easily google them with this keyword - "AMD system audio problem"
and more link below and per the theory presented by those ppl, the AMD system is so faulty and need to be replaced with an Intel system don't shoot on this, i'm just using their 'smarter' logic to make this statement :)
http://www.programmersheaven.com/mb/winxp/299922/299922/ReadMessage.aspx
My sons PC keeps crashing (every few days) and the on-board sound keeps resetting itself as the default sound other than an Audigy sound card (with breakout box) which is what we want as the default.
I was wondering if I bought a new motherboard and reinstalled Windows that may cure the problem as everyone who has looked at the problem is baffled. BIOS flashed etc; un-install/re-install audigy etc.
The processor is a AMD 2GHz and we have 1G of RAM. The motherboard is about 2 years old.
and the list can goes on and on, you just need to look at those links provided from a google search.
oh btw, you are free to search on the keywords "intel system audio problem" too.
and per the logic provided iby those smarter one, none of the PC can play audio!! great! I'm really having fun reading the blog comments.:)
symbiansn
"DAE requires extraction of the audio image onto the HDD itself from the buffer before a conversion to Windows-compatible waveform begins"
Where do you get your ideas from? Never has audio CDs been played by copying any parts of it to HDD. If you claim otherwise then please explain why can I play CD's with my HDD stopped?
Are you sure you don't mess it up with CD ripping?
"DVD movies and audio are compressed then quantized format alike to MP3, thus DVD movies' datagrams are system-efficient and can mask latency as well."
What has compression got to do with anything when the compressed data stream is still several orders of magnitude bigger?
Also audo CDs also have mechanisms for hiding latencies. There is no problem to play disks with several tens of milliseconds of missing data without the listener even knowing about it. DVDs have similar protection mechanisms too.
"The major problem we have here is real-time execution and synchro between components"
This is no problem with any PC made during the last 15 years or so. Most likely because playing a CD is not taxing as there is so little data being moved around and it isn't exactly too latenct dependant.
"Reading from compressed data then decompressing it later is always more efficient"
Yes, this is true assuming the decompression doesn't require lots of recources. Also having less data to read only improves effective bandwidth, it has next to no impact on latency and you claimed latency is the problem.
"In the case of CD Audio, thisratio is almost 1:1."
And the point is ...? As I said having less data to read doesn't help with latency.
You have to read lots more data from DVD when decompressing it and to add to that you have two totally different data streams you have to uncompress and synchronize separately.
Though I hope you do know that with movies you have to decode two separate streams in parallel, image and audio and those get out of sync quite easily
"Older PC's didn't use DAE for playing CD Audio..."
Neither do modern computers. DAE is used for CD ripping, not for playback. Also I could rip CDs at around 5-8x speeds on P1 166MHz without the use of sound card. Explain how was this possible.
"it was just way too taxing. The CD drive sent analog audio to the sound card instead."
What made it so taxing? Wouldn't streaming it through sound card be even more taxing as even more buses have to be travelled?
"Explaining this to you should be more difficult than AMD convince Intel of the benefits from integrating a memory controller"
Well, as I managed to understand it myself around three to four years ago I think I can understand whatever explanation you can come up with. I'll be waiting.
Another thing you can humour us is to find some other people writing about the same problems you describe here. If FSB based machines really do have such problems then Internet shold be overwhelmed by the stories a non-FSB based machines are relatively new.
Hmm,
I could totally see how any CD could choke up any AMD system.
44100 (freq) x 16 (bits) x 2 (channels) = 1,411,200 bytes (1.4MB)
Not sure hypertransport was designed to operate with that kind of bandwidth!
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