Matrix Interpretation
I was reading this Wikipedia page about Matrix Revolutions, I was surprised to see what was obvious to me from watching the movie was not even discussed.
The following is my interpretation of Matrix
0) Neo was a program created to introduce a balance in the system (Everything you see Neo doing/seeing is thus 100% virtual).
1) Zion itself was a simulated world, it's just another level of control.
2) At the end, the Architect of the system simply relaxed the thought control rules in the Matrix.
When the Zion council talked to Neo about those mysterious machines that kept Zion alive, it was a strong hint that Zion itself was just a simulation. Neo stopped those sentinels with his hand, because he realized that he was just a super porgram and what happened in Zion was also a simulation. Neo entered a state of limbo, because of this cruel realisation that even Zion was a simulation and a mechanism of control, thus there was no more purpose to fight for it. The humans were simply imagining Zion in their vats.
The final outcome of Matrix was simple: humans accepted that they would never leave their vats, and the Architect allowed more humans to enter Zion or do whatever they wanted. At the beginning, Neo was not allowed to hack in the Matrix, agents (thought control) were everywhere). Basically, the end was just a freer Matrix -- which is better for both the system and humans.
Now, you realize that you, who is watching the movie, is also in the Matrix.
Matrix is a reflection of the western society. The people think they are free, but they are not. Freedom is just another level of control. You can say whatever you want, but eventually, the big money and media will filter the information and control the minds of the majority of people. Those who know the truth can speak out, but their views won't become main stream, but serve to strengthen the standard view. Originally, as in the beginning of Matrix, there were agents trying to shut up those dissenting opinions, at the end, the few people designing the system realized that actually allowing those free expression will make the system even more robust. As the dissidents will stop trying violence as long as they can express their views.
Now, who is controlling the minds of people? The big money. Who controls big money? A few very smart individuals behind closed doors.
Look at the world events, you see this happening every day. Some individuals arrange to have some video shown on TV, you watch it, as expected, your mind and body react to it, cause and effect. The initial command to air the video may come from somewhere in middle east, the signals got sent via EM waves, finally reach your brain... Simple as that.
Our only hope is that technology becomes so pervasive and advanced, that we will know the truth of every thing as it happens. The 50x15 and pervasive 64 bit computing vision will be a small step toward achieving this goal. As we progress, no more CNN, no more Fox, no more Forbes, all these crap will become history. The question is then, whether something like Google, which is supposed to be based on algorithms, will become another level of control.
posted by Sharikou, Ph. D. @ 8/11/2006 12:31:00 PM
74 Comments:
Interesting thought.
My take is that computing is but one force in nature. It coule be powerful and be able to change people's life. But there are other forces, such as gravity, love, and super-nature. Some other forces might be more important in determining one's happiness. :)
You too were visited by some men in black wearing sun glases? I thought I was the only one ...
P.S. Google is watching you ...
Every day a little bit of this so-called "Freedom" is takin' away in the United States. I don't wish to start a political war, but George Bush is a tyranical imperialist looking to control the world. Democracies are supposed to be about choice, and forcing things upon people is dictatorial, yet Bush is trying to force Democracy onto countries, isn't that oxymoronish?
Democracies do not work, Dictatorships work; with the right dictator of course. Alot of people don't want the responsibility of choice, they want easy life and let other people make the tough choices for them, add that in with money in the Middle East, and Democracy will never work. You'll have business's and mafia-esque organizations controlling everything. Democracy doesn't work. Period.
PS: America is not a democracy, in case you didn't know.
Rule #1: Analyse what is truly important to you.
Rule #2: Follow rule #1.
Here I see people calling each other names, behaving undignified, because they cling to a certain ideal.
Think for yourselves for a moment:
Is it worth it to you to prove that Intel is better or worse than AMD? What does that accomplish? You would lose all dignity and honor to call down someone's thoughts and prove someone wrong? You claim that it's good for the world for an exposition?
What does it REALLY matter to you whether zzy is 10% faster than xxy? How does spending all of your free time talking about zzy, crusading against xxy, working hard to change people's opinions matter?
You may think there is a conspiracy out there against you. The truth is, that no one is out to hurt you. The reality is that people tend to think that they are being controlled by people behind closed doors. The truth is that you give in to them, you become their slaves.
I see people in this blog brainwashed by their own power, NOT by people behind closed doors. We were born free.
We have chosen to be suceptible. Yes, WE chose to be controlled by AMD or Intel or whomever. Think about it. Who told YOU to evangelize AMD? No one. Who told YOU that you should write letters to other people that state Intel is great? Not Intel. Not AMD.
We are all suckers. WE decide to be pawns. If we didn't spend so much time fighting on behalf of these companies we would be better off. The media corporations merely feed off this fact. They deliver - right to your desktop - what you have chosen to read. Or it is delivered to your door and you choose to read it. The whole culture swallows its own phallus.
Sharikou thinks that the way towards enlightenment is through technology. It's not. Technology merely accelerates ideals being shared.
YOU sit there and decide what to believe. Yes, YOU. Whether Google filters out information or not, people still fall into the trap. We see it all over. The truth can be found if it's truly important to you even if Google chooses not to serve it to you. You just have to open your eyes. If you can't reach the truth from where you are then it shouldn't matter to you, because you can't change it.
What's that? Oh, you bought into the whole AMD is good Intel is bad idea hmmm? You saw information on the net stating so. That information didn't enter your mind magically. You invited it in. You wanted to believe in a good guy bad guy scenario. So you picked a side. You also, apparently, bought into the idea that there needs to be a good guy and a bad guy.
You conjured images of Intel execs sitting behind those closed doors trying to figure out how to get your money and give you nothing in return. So be it! You played yourself into the game, picked a seat, dealt yourself a hand, and continue laying on your bets.
Who is the evil person? Not Intel or AMD. They handed you the deck, but you chose to deal. Now you're sitting here day and night trying to convince people to see things the way you do.
The truth is that it's not really important. If you are sitting here evangelizing AMD or Intel, you are creating your little phallic-swallowing reality. Your vocalization has given AMD and Intel fuel to continue doing what they do, giving you more beef to swallow.
The solution? Decide what's important to you. Let go of your opinions and crusades.
this was my exact take on it too, although they kinda did funny things in Revolution, it was in Reloaded that I knew Zion was a construct(from the architect's speech)
The Big Picture
If we could step back, way back to the edge of the universe we may see the big picture. What dimension are we in anyway. Perceived expectations of the truth is easy, but the real truth maybe harder.
Intel fanboys have there truth as does the AMD crowd. From where I’m sitting I can’t see the big picture yet.
America is not a democracy, in case you didn't know.
True. America is a republic, not a democracy.
From where I’m sitting I can’t see the big picture yet.
The big picture is: both AMD and Intel will be gone eventually and be replaced by more advanced ones. But Intel has already become 100% obsolete.
Democracies do not work, Dictatorships work; with the right dictator of course. Alot of people don't want the responsibility of choice, they want easy life and let other people make the tough choices for them, add that in with money in the Middle East, and Democracy will never work. You'll have business's and mafia-esque organizations controlling everything. Democracy doesn't work. Period.
This is the thing that most of us of us in the 'Christian' world don't understand.
The values of Muslim people in countries such as Iraq and Iran are incredibly different than here in North America. We hear this all the time, but we don't truly understand what this means.
The general populace of a country such as Iraq does not base their opinions of their government on how well their country plays with other countries, or who is free or what people can do.
They base their personal opinion of their own government in its capacity to adhere to 'Gods will'. Meaning - in its ability to govern according to Islam. Some nations also believe that power is given by right and usurpers do not have the right to rule (which leads to revolts, such as you'd see in Iraq and Afghanistan today because of imposed governments). It's not because they wish to be unburdened by 'choice'.
If a person believes that Islam says that the infidels must die, and his government behaves accordingly, they will approve of their government. (Not all Islamic nations are the same, of course)
'Freedom' is fucking stupid word that means entirely different things to entirely different people. "Everyone in this world is free," can be said truthfully, and "No one is free in this world," can also be truthfully spoken in the same breath.
Democracy CAN work in the middle east. Which is why Hamas is the ruling power of Palestine. We just don't like the results of their democracy.
If you believe that mafia-esque type controls run rampant in the middle east more than in America you may be a victim to the 'they are worse than us' mentality.
In some countries, popular opinion will drive enough people to start a revolution and depose or kill their leader. You can call that an 'election'. Things might be better in America if the same was done.
WELL over half the people in the US disapprove of recent decisions made by George Bush. The US democracy allows him to run rampant during his reign of four years. Yet this is better? The Constitution is failing America.
'Westernization' forced down the throats of middle easterners will not work. Ever. In some Islamic nations the only thing will work is by reinterpretation of Islam by the masses.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with Islam. In fact, it has served the world well and has historically promoted science and technology and kept the Western world from turning into a bunch of savages until the Renaissance.
Most people don't even know that Islam is built on Christianity which is built on Judaism and so forth. It's frightening to think that some Christians don't even have a clue where their own religion came from. Yet they think they can understand another religious nation? Yet their Christian leaders profess to be 'champions of the free world'? The reality of the world is sitting in front of them, but they choose not to see it.
I mean, is George Bush hampered by a lack of available knowledge? Does Google filter HIS information? Why doesn't he know a few simple concepts like this?
Fucking scary that someone like him is running the show.
Fucking scarier that people re-elected him.
The big picture is: both AMD and Intel will be gone eventually and be replaced by more advanced ones. But Intel has already become 100% obsolete.
Then AMD must be downright archaic if Intel's Conroes are beating (at least in SOME respects, to be sure) AMD's best and fastest.
But you're right, they will both come and go. Something better will always come along. AMD will outdo Intel soon, and then Intel will outdo AMD, and then something will come along to put them both out of business.
"True. America is a republic, not a democracy"
People in America need to realize that long gone are the days where voting matters. Elections are controlled by political parties, and those that win are what the Government (sorta like the Patriots from MGS2) thinks will best serve big business and bring in the most cash. They don't care about the citizens (Take 9/11 for example...you do know the truth about it by now, right guys?).
True. America is a republic, not a democracy.
Rather, America is a republic that is governed by a democracy.
However, since almost all countries are republics now, the term 'democracy' is more fitting to designate the origin of leadership or the style of governance.
So, yeah, it's a democracy. Or a dictatorship, depending on your how you want to view the scope of the President's powers.
“The big picture is: both AMD and Intel will be gone eventually and be replaced by more advanced ones. But Intel has already become 100% obsolete.”
You are correct about the “big Picture”, but I would argue Intel won’t be obsolete until Tuesday August 15th 2006.
Something not negative about Intel. Sorry couldn't resist.
Anyways, interesting thoughts.
american democracy brought us BUSH!
Sharikou, another show that applies similar principles is the anime series Ghost In The Shell: Stand Alone Complex.
Speaking of AMD and Intel being gone in the future, I can see Intel withering away as it is. But as for AMD I would have thought it would became more adaptive (evolve) and grow into a larger organisation?
“The 50x15 and pervasive 64 bit computing vision will be a small step toward achieving this goal.”
I agree and Hal the computer in “2001 Space Odyssey” wasn’t too shabby either. Quote from the movie in a low computer voice “sorry I can’t do that Dave.”
I do not think Neo or any of the other humans were simulations.
No. Neo is a simulation. Other humans are humans in their vats.
AMD I would have thought it would became more adaptive (evolve) and grow into a larger organisation?
You will see Intel BK soon and AMD will become the dominant CPU maker for the next 20 years.
You conjured images of Intel execs sitting behind those closed doors trying to figure out how to get your money and give you nothing in return. So be it!
If you thought I considered Intel execs those big folks behind closed doors, you were wrong. Intel is just a pawn, Intel execs are just pawns of a pawn. The few individuals in control are those guys behind big international banks, those behind the Bilderberg folks, the Federal reserve folks (you know Federal reserve is a private corporation?)... Those folks run the show behind closed doors, economical, political and military.
"As such, situations such as the Matrix are impossible"
(before tv's were invented) "3d images are impossibe, you can't control light like that, blah blah blah..
"True. America is a republic, not a democracy."
America might have been a republic 200 years ago. There might have been democracy 200 years ago.
But good things don't last. Especially when under constant attack by the forces of evil.
Today, America is nothing more than a plutocracy, ruled by the "bankers" and their cohorts.
Witness the land theft and genocide of the Arab people by the Israelis -- funded by America, weaponized by America, defended by America.
It gives you a clue as to who is running America. It is not the Americans.
I think you know all this. If you know about the history of the Federal Reserve, then you know one of the main ways America was taken over by the "bankers".
Unfortunately, most of the people on this blog, most of the people in the world, are just coppertops.
"The question is then, whether something like Google, which is supposed to be based on algorithms, will become another level of control."
Google is already another level of control. From the get go, it was built for the intelligence agencies. Which are the "Agents" of the Matrix.
Google's franchise is an adjunct to Microsoft's franchise. Each firm cut a deal with the rulers and was rewarded beyond any man's dream.
If you have used Google since the beginning, you know that Google has been extensively tuned over time.
The "algorithms" do not return what is on the web. They return what the powers that be want you to see on the web.
If you walk away and think about one thing, think about that last paragraph.
This is patently absurd. Though I find the Matrix to be interesting in concept, it is mathematically impossible. There is no computer analog of the human mind. The comprehension of the Incompleteness Theorem by humans, and the simultaneous incomprehensibility of it to computers, makes obvious the fact that the Computational Theory of the Mind is, well, incomplete. As such, situations such as the Matrix are impossible.
First of all, please note that the Matrix is not "a computer analog of the human mind", it's a virtual world where real human minds live - something like playing a multiplayer game of Quake or Unreal. :)
Second, "a computer analog of the humand mind" is mathematically possible, actually. You're forgetting the fact, that our minds are limited. We have a finite (but very large) number of neurons. We live only for a finite period of time. (I'm assuming that nobody lives forever...) There's also an upper bound for the length of the human life. All of the information that we receive from the real world is discrete. (for example our eyes have a finite number of cells, so that means finite number of pixels :) ) So the human mind receives a finite set of data and produces a finite set of data. There's also upper bounds on the amounts of data that we receive and produce. So in theory you don't even need a turing machine to simulate the human mind - even a finite state automata will do the job :).
"mean, is George Bush hampered by a lack of available knowledge? Does Google filter HIS information? Why doesn't he know a few simple concepts like this?
Fucking scary that someone like him is running the show.
Fucking scarier that people re-elected him."
Elections in America are a farce. Have been for a long time. As long as Americans believe the illusions of "voting" and "home ownership", the rulers can basically do anything they want.
Including installing whatever "President" they want to run their prize possession, the USA.
If you stop and think a moment, you will realize that there is ONE race of people that hates Arabs.
And we also know that GWB is merely a front man for the those behind the scenes.
And we know the front man, GWB, that his #1 mission is the total genocide of the Arab people. Witness Iraq. Witness the US support of Israel's invasion and decimation of Lebanon.
Looking at our facts, logic tells us who controls GWB and really controls America.
The irony of it is that most Americans are too dumbed down and jacked-in to know what is going on. They are fated to live and die as coppertops, human batteries to be put in the machines of their masters.
Hey, I am free. Well, at list I thougt
I was free until I bought my computer
Anyway I remember I felt free from time to time,
Now when I want to feel free I go and seat in front of my computeR
wondering what lol means
As long as Americans believe the illusions of "voting" and "home ownership", the rulers can basically do anything they want.
That's very deep insight.
We really are in the Matrix...
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/reserve.htm
Technology should free you.. Reality is: technology helps your freedom away!
A story in news here in NZ, at a community hall all the children were playing out side, abruptly two muslim women wearing traditional dress screamed and lunged at their children in their own native tounge, the two boys ran terrified to their mothers side, a translator told the other mortified parents, the two women told their children that
"if they dont stop playing with all those other infidel children they would have their throats slit!"
Interpret that?
This will never end. The answer lies in the 'Red Queen'.
Interesting...but consider the following. If the Matrix is a virtual world in which human minds live, and further we assume that this virtual world is a program running on a computer, then it stands to reason that the human minds must also be programs being run on the same computers, much in the same way that a program would be run inside an operating system.
They don't have to live _in_ the Matrix, they only need to interact with it. When you play a game, you don't live inside your computer, you only interact with the software in it using your monitor, keyboard and mouse. Suppose that we replace them with something that connects directly to the neurons of your senses and sends electrical signals to them. I'm not saying that there wasn't any AI in the movie, of course. I'm just saying that if we want to make the Matrix, we don't really need AI.
By the way, by considering that we receive and produce finite sets of data presupposes that we are information processing devices (computers). And while I won't debate that we do process information, is that really all that we are?
Our senses are the only way to receive information from the real world. They of course produce data and send it to the brain. We observe other people's behavior only using this data. If a program gives us the same data, we won't be able to tell whether it's a program or a real person. Since both the input and the output data is discrete and finite, there's "only" a finite number of combinations of data (although an insanely large number, indeed), so it's possible to make such a program, at least in theory.
Indeed, the logician Alan Tarsky proved some years ago that no logical system (and, hence, no formal system like a computer) could encapsulate truth. Since humankind freely understand the notion of truth, we cannot, ourselves, be formal systems. Ergo, we cannot be computers, or even computer simulacra.
Actually I don't know these theorems in detail, but why do you think that we freely understand the notion of truth? We think so and we say that we do. But it's possible to make a program that also says that. How would you understand if a person understands the notion of truth, then? Ask him/her questions? You can only ask a finite number of questions (because you won't live forever). You can make a program that answers all of them correctly.
To Sharikou:
I have (almost) the same view as you after seeing the Matrix trilogy.
Regarding your technology giving people freedom, though, I doubt it, because people have been saying this since the invention and popularization of newspapers, radios, and TVs, and it seems to me that wherever there are media and ways for people to communicate, there are ways for big money to control. I don't think computer or Intenet would be any exception.
To those who discussed mind simulation:
It is totally possible to simulate mind. Such a mind-simulator doesn't need to be implemented using C++ on a Turing machine. Such a program could run fuzzy logic on a neural network that's similar to the brain itself, but only larger.
I don't assume that I have an answer for how to do that, but there's no evidence of such thing being impossible. As a matter of fact, one of Sharikou's points was that we ARE living in such a simulation, which uses the media as control and everyone's brain as functional units. As long as a big portion of those (brains) believe what they see/hear from the big media, the simulation can go on.
Democracy and the concept of freedom are introduced to let those who don't believe feel better, even though they can not change any shitty part of the world that's controlled by the big money.
Genocide of the Arab people? Please lets look at the real modern day genocide: Rwanda.
They are trying to subvert the Arabs culturally and economically, yes, but to completely kill them off? You must f**king dreaming. Its takes more than what has happened this past 2 decades to even suggest that.
Fact; the virtual world will not be running on net-burst.
Fact; P4’s are consuming the worlds resources.
Prediction; Future weather report for Iran; 2500 degrees and overcast
Just 25 years ago the PC was invented. 25 years from now virtual reality, Matrix Ver_1.0 completely conceivable. Hell, my x-wife lives in a virtually different world even today.
:(
Sharikou, this is even more crazy than your flaming past:(
This is pure political ramblings and the connection to "64-bit computing" is pretty weak. Let's get back to the fanboi vs fanboi ravings of the old days.
Those of you that don't like being a part of the brainwashed "western" society are welcome to go elsewhere, where you can be a part of and/or a victim of those who kill indiscriminately in the name of their religion.
And Sharikou, if you keep going in this direction, and you live in the USA, you WILL get visited by men in black wearing sunglasses who detain you without charges.
Since you're talking about Matrix but none of you have noted it was somewhat inspired by certain parts of the unibomber manifesto. I think the part in question that the W. Brothers took and expanded on was the part whereby if we gave control upon control over to the machines, they'll end up controlling us all.
Regarding your technology giving people freedom, though, I doubt it, because people have been saying this since the invention and popularization of newspapers, radios, and TVs, and it seems to me that wherever there are media and ways for people to communicate, there are ways for big money to control.
There are two sides of the equation
1) Technology gives people more freedom, as they can obtain true information faster. Technlogy level the playing field.
2) Technology gives people less freedom, because the big money can use the technology to communicate their views to the majority faster and on a larger scale. Big money has a huge advantage because they employ the smartest minds and they have the resource.
I am optmistic that 1) will be the dominant force with technological advance. The OLPC project and 50x15 are extremely important--imagine the children of the world grow up connected with each other with their OLPC. There will be a lot more mutual understanding and less confrontation.
"The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)'s publishing arm has released a book that says President Bush organized New York's Sept. 11 attacks.
The decision by the 160-year-old Westminster John Knox Press, the trade and academic publishing imprint of the Presbyterian Publishing Corp., to attribute the attacks on the World Trade Center brings into the U.S. religious mainstream a conspiracy theory long held by the world's jihadists.
In 'Christian Faith and the Truth behind 9/11: A Call to Reflection and Action,' author David Ray Griffin calls the United States the world's 'chief embodiment of demonic power, says he initially scoffed at 9/11 conspiracy theories.
But after investigating he concluded that the Twin Towers were brought down by controlled demolition, military personnel were given stand-down orders not to intercept hijacked flights and the 9/11 Commission, ostensibly created to uncover the truth behind the events of 9/11, 'simply ignored evidence' that the administration was involved in the attacks."
If this truth leaks out too much, be prepared for Bush's masters to carry out a nuclear attack on an American city. Most likely somewhere east of Hollywood (Phoenix?) but still where the radiation fallout will kill many Americans of European descent in the Midwest.
Bruno,
Did you know that George Bush senior killed more that 200,000 Iraqi's in the first gulf war. Did you know the sanction that clinton enforced on Iraq killed more than 1.5 million Iraqi kids due to censoring medicine and medical equipment. Did you know the our current president killed more than 100,000 Iraqi civilians so far..
Add the numbers man.. If this is not GENOCIDE, then what is?
Lets examine our Freedom:
- We have to pay 40% of our income to uncle sam
- We have to abide by a million laws
- We have no say in what the president will do
- There are millions of cameras watching us everyday
- THe government has to know what books you read and what medicine you take
- The government snoops on us anytime they want
- Any web site we go to is a suspect
- We have no right to privacy
- With the patriot act, you can be thrown in Jail for ever without a charge
- The president can declare you an enemy combatant anytime he wants
So much for freedom!
mad mod mike,
india is the worlds largest deomcracy. its still vibrant and healthy.
"Did you know that George Bush senior killed more that 200,000 Iraqi's in the first gulf war."
This would be civilians? Because if the casualties were mostly military then what is there to talk. A soldier kills or is killed. That's the job requirement.
"Did you know the sanction that clinton enforced on Iraq killed more than 1.5 million Iraqi kids due to censoring medicine and medical equipment."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq
****
In 1990 Iraq invaded Kuwait resulting in the Gulf War; and the United Nations economic sanctions imposed at the urging of the U.S. The economic sanctions were designed to compel Saddam to dispose of weapons of mass destruction (WMDs). Critics estimate that between 400,000 and 800,000 Iraqi children died as a result of the sanctions.
***
That was the gerneral consensus of all the members of the UN because not matter what no one nation can move the UN when the rest of the members refuses to move.
"Did you know the our current president killed more than 100,000 Iraqi civilians so far..."
How many of them were killed by the extremists via suicide bombing and executions?
You better look harder life boy or go back to your candy house of dreams.
Independent analysts generally agree the Iraqi death toll was well below initial post-war estimates. In the immediate aftermath of the war, these estimates ranged as high as 100,000 Iraqi troops killed and 300,000 wounded.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War
The Iraq Body Count project puts the total of civilian deaths reported in major media between 40,057 and 44,584 as of August 8, 2006.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_in_the_conflict_in_Iraq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_survey_of_mortality_before_and_after_the_2003_invasion_of_Iraq
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/28/iraq.main/
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/07/28/iraq.main/
Look and you will learn. As you can see current deaths are mostly by extremists now. As can be seen here http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/
Now back to 64 bit war between AMD and Intel.
"Matrix" is known as maya in Indian philosophy for ages. We all live in maya. One who is self-realized breaks the shackles of maya and enters super-consciousness. Don't try to equate maya with western society. All societies western, eastern, northern, southern live in maya. It is for each individual to break maya. It's not a political concept ! People like Jesus, Buddha have attaied this state of consciousness.
Google on "Advaita vedanta matrix" and you'll get enough food for thought.
A story in news here in NZ, at a community hall all the children were playing out side, abruptly two muslim women wearing traditional dress screamed and lunged at their children in their own native tounge, the two boys ran terrified to their mothers side, a translator told the other mortified parents, the two women told their children that
"if they dont stop playing with all those other infidel children they would have their throats slit!"
Interpret that?
Two women are not representatives of an entire society. They are representatives of a portion of the culture of Islam that believes the infidels must die.
Meanwhile, back in 'civilized' society, we prop up millions of catholic schools with public funding which exclude people based on religion.
We shun those people from Islamic nations. We refuse to accept these people as equals.
We disgrace Islamic people by making fun of their prophet. We call them terrorists.
We bomb their cities and towns, invade their countries, and fund other countries that do the same.
We create double standards by supporting little tyranic nations that regularly send people to their death without trial or justification...all because they nicely send us oil. Worse, we prop up governments in these countries to ensure that no matter what they do, the oil comes to US rather than France or Russia.
We denounce and alienate ourselves from nations who disagree with our decisions and call them enemies.
We routinely capture, abuse, rape, and slaughter civilians. We lock them up indefinitely without fair trials.
Yes, the western world is so much better. We just do everything on a much bigger scale.
"Just like OLPC, it's a brilliant program."
So can someone enlighten us on what this "brilliant" program has delivered to the world in terms of results? Is it a brilliant program or a brilliant idea? (or neither?)
"1) Technology gives people more freedom, as they can obtain true information faster. Technlogy level the playing field."
I think you need to modify this to just say information, the "true" part is subjective...ultimately the truthfulness of the information is dependent on the source of information.
The issue is many people will not have the background to understand and challenge the information and just accept it as true. This will either lead to:
1) a bunch more misinformation floating around and trading one level of control with another (look around at some of the blog sites that exist today that people think are true)
2) A need for someone/something to grade the accuracy of the information (and thus leading to the inherent problem of that person/thing having inherent bias or ulterior motives).
Making information more ubiquitous doens't necessarily make the information truthful...
"Bruno Dieter Chan said...
Independent analysts generally agree the Iraqi death toll was well below initial post-war estimates. In the immediate aftermath of the war, these estimates ranged as high as 100,000 Iraqi troops killed and 300,000 wounded.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War
..."
Wikipedia is a well known New World Order website.
Quoting this anti-truth website shows you to be nothing more than a NWO shill.
And offers nothing more to the world than your implicit support of racism and genocide.
Bravo, Dieter. A true coppertop slave you are.
Well it was much better than what you did. Since you have yet provided an online resource yourself.
Every truth is contaminated. It is by assembling a group of 'truths' that overlaping facts are found. Those overlapping facts then is what you can construe to be the truth.
You on the other hand are a single cell brained person. You take only one factor of a large chain of effects which you find supportive of your point of view and state it as simply the only cause for the whole event.
"We shun those people from Islamic nations. We refuse to accept these people as equals."
Funny, I am pretty sure the French and English think otherwise. About about the Canadians?
"We disgrace Islamic people by making fun of their prophet."
We call them heathens and they call us infidels. Yet they immigrate to the western countries because it is still better than their own.
"We bomb their cities and towns, invade their countries, and fund other countries that do the same."
That's how wars are fought for hundreds of years. You're pretty navie to think otherwise.
"We create double standards by supporting little tyranic nations that regularly send people to their death without trial or justification...all because they nicely send us oil. Worse, we prop up governments in these countries to ensure that no matter what they do, the oil comes to US rather than France or Russia."
Yes, thank god for those greedy Arabs. Luckily, they themselves can't seem to set a better standard of moral and ethical behaviour.
On another note. Do you drive a SUV or similar large vehicle? Do you enjoy your controlled environment in your house despite the heat or cold outside? Popping a cold one and watching tv? Perhaps walk in the mall and window shop for clothes, PC part or even books? Do you yourself practice economical or alternative sourse of fuel/power consumption? Because for you to enjoy all that where you think the fuel run the machines is coming from?
"We denounce and alienate ourselves from nations who disagree with our decisions and call them enemies."
They do the same too. And your point is?
"We routinely capture, abuse, rape, and slaughter civilians. We lock them up indefinitely without fair trials."
Good god only the westerners!?!?
"Yes, the western world is so much better. We just do everything on a much bigger scale."
Especially whine. Whine, whine. In that nice home, in front of your tv, eating 3 meals a day. I got an idea! Instead of whinning, get join the Peace Corps! Or Red Cross! Or wait, I think your easy chair needs more stretching out so the leather form better to your ass groove.
physicsguy46 said: "In either case, the knowledge acquired by the computer ... is knowledge gained a posteriori. Humans, on the other hand, ... apprehend such knowledge a priori, since the process of determining the truth of something is an internal process."
You have a good point of view. However, assume technology 20 years in the future allows us to actually build a brain-like structure, and interact with it (via modulated electric pulses, for example).
Lets assume we have a way to start from a 'blank' brain-like structure and train it with ability of language and logic i.e., the ability to think. Such a computer's ability to tell the truth would be a priori or a posteriori?
As for the human beings - we thought that we derive the truth independently, but inevitably we were fed by information produced externally. That's why people from different cultures (rather than of different race) conceive truth differently. The truth in our minds are not intrinsic to our brain or gene; it's a reaction to what we were taught and what we learned.
"Wikipedia is a well known New World Order website."
A better way to interprete Wikipedia is this: somebody said so about such topic. While I don't think it's anti-truth, it won't be always right, either.
Note however that on that Wikipedia page, the theory that "independent analysts generally agree" was produced in a "report commissioned by the U.S. Air Force."
"People like Jesus, Buddha have attaied this state of consciousness."
That's all very fine, until you find out that 99.999999% of their follows did not, and did not want to, attain such state, too.
sigh...
"We shun those people from Islamic nations. We refuse to accept these people as equals."
Funny, I am pretty sure the French and English think otherwise. About about the Canadians?
I AM Canadian. We are all equal. In general, people that emigrate to this country have the same opportunities as someone who was born here. None of our societies are perfect, however when a westerner travels to a foreign nation, they will treat us well (in order to get our money sometimes), but rarely are we shunned.
"We disgrace Islamic people by making fun of their prophet."
We call them heathens and they call us infidels. Yet they immigrate to the western countries because it is still better than their own.
No 'they' don't emigrate to our countries. That is why their countries are populated. SOME do, however very little.
And by the way, we ARE infidels. It means 'unbelievers'. If you're not Islamic you're an infidel by default. It is not by default a negative term.
"We bomb their cities and towns, invade their countries, and fund other countries that do the same."
That's how wars are fought for hundreds of years. You're pretty navie to think otherwise.
There's no need for it anymore. For some yokel from Nebraska to don combat fatigues and travel thousands of miles to a foreign country which he personally has no beef with to shoot random people as directed is disgraceful. If everyone stopped doing this there would be no more wars.
Likewise, for a political leader to direct people into a foreign nation to kill people is again, needless. Western countries do this under the guise of good, when there are many other factors at play.
"We create double standards by supporting little tyranic nations that regularly send people to their death without trial or justification...all because they nicely send us oil. Worse, we prop up governments in these countries to ensure that no matter what they do, the oil comes to US rather than France or Russia."
Yes, thank god for those greedy Arabs. Luckily, they themselves can't seem to set a better standard of moral and ethical behaviour.
Again, we don't need to. We in the western world would get by just fine if we didn't do this any more.
On another note. Do you drive a SUV or similar large vehicle?No. Do you enjoy your controlled environment in your house despite the heat or cold outside?Yes, as a result of energy that my own nation provides. Popping a cold one and watching tv? Neither. Perhaps walk in the mall and window shop for clothes, PC part or even books?Nix on the mall, clothes, but yes, books are a necessity. Your point? Do you yourself practice economical or alternative sourse of fuel/power consumption? No need to, my region of the country would have enough energy resources for thousands of years if the greedy Americans didn't gobble it all up in their SUV's to travel to their jobs to make my cpu's. Because for you to enjoy all that where you think the fuel run the machines is coming from? MY country. MY oil. My labours. I am paying my dues. How many of you bastards have ever worked on an actual drilling rig that drilled a mile deep to tap into oil? I've done hundreds. I can firmly say that my efforts have help to pay for my own energy consumption. And you too, pay for it fairly and squarely when you dollar goes to an America oil well. However, if you are in America, an oil importing nation, some of your money goes towards bloodshed in other nations. Yes yes, my money does trickle into the US for consumer products based on this, but whenever I have the say, my money stays at home.
"We denounce and alienate ourselves from nations who disagree with our decisions and call them enemies."
They do the same too. And your point is?
My point is that Iran or North Korea or Iraq or Afghanistan are 'enemy nations' because we've interfered with their way of doing things. Or interfered with other nations historically. The difference is that they are not invading the US to depose anti-Iranian leaders.
"We routinely capture, abuse, rape, and slaughter civilians. We lock them up indefinitely without fair trials."
Good god only the westerners!?!?
Yes, on such an enormous scale. Again, no Iraqi has ever abducted an American in American soil that I know of.
"Yes, the western world is so much better. We just do everything on a much bigger scale."
Especially whine. Whine, whine. In that nice home, in front of your tv, eating 3 meals a day. I got an idea! Instead of whinning, get join the Peace Corps! Or Red Cross! Or wait, I think your easy chair needs more stretching out so the leather form better to your ass groove.
I already did. I've lived in third world nations, supported their efforts at independance. I've put in my time.
All I'm doing is pointing out our western nation's aggressions. If we stopped interfering in the world's business we'd be better off. They'd be better off.
Yet you deny this? I can't help but wonder what sort of person you are. You support the death and suffering of other nations at our hands?
Well spoken PhysicsGuy46... I couldn't have put it so well.
PhysicsGuy46 said... "FACT: The US gives more in monetary and material aid to the rest of the world than any of its dear "Western" friends."
This so-called "fact" along with the rest of your hogwash shows just how dumbed-down Americans really are.
The US is actually ranked 13th on how well they help improve the lives of people in the so-called 'rest of the world'.
"The index ranks the 21 richest nations in the world by assessing their policies and practices across seven areas of government action -- foreign aid, trade, investment, migration, environment, security and technology -- to establish how they are helping or hurting poor countries.
The 21 nations are assessed in terms of how much aid is given to developing countries, the level of trade barriers against imports from poor countries and their efforts to slow global warming"
Maybe you can look up how much the US spends on war every year and tell us all how proud you are?
The nation you are so proud of is nothing more than a welfare state, getting filled every day with 50,000 more illegal aliens. The US is a nation controlled by the very rich who are doing the most they can to destroy the middle class and return the US to plutocratic feudalism.
And courtesy of the US-funded illegal invasion and rape of Lebanon, the US is now the cause of both of the world's largest oil spill ecological disasters -- the Valdez and now Israel's destruction of Lebanon's oil facilities.
The US is the main tool of the New World Order and according to one of the largest and oldest churches, the world's "chief embodiment of demonic power".
Most, if not all, of your so-called "facts" are just propaganda and lies. You show yourself incapable of thinking for yourself, incapable of knowing what is right, and incapable of doing what is right.
By some definitions, ironically, that is "American".
As for your propaganda:
Nice try, Coppertop Guy.
Let's look at what you say:
Let me say this now loud and clear. I AM AN AMERICAN. And I am DAMN PROUD of it!!! It pisses me off to no end that so many of you out there disrespect this country and its people because of your own ignorance. So here is a little lesson from an American, the product of the finest university system in the world, on the truth of the world:
FACT: The US gives more in monetary and material aid to the rest of the world than any of its dear "Western" friends.
Here are some fast facts. Foreign aid per capita:
United States, population 295,000,000: 12.9 billion = $43.73
Japan, population 127,000,000: 9.2 billion = $72.44
Canada, population 32,000,000: 2.0 billion = $66.66
UK, population 60,000,000: 4.8 billion = $80.00
Germany, population 82,000,000: 5.4 billion $65.85
France, population 60,000,000: 5.2 billion = $86.66
We can see that the heathens in France not only surpass US foreign aid per capita, but double it. Not only is the US on the bottom of the list, it isn't even close to many other industrial nations. Not that what it contributes isn't good, but per capita, people in America (due to policy, granted) aren't as giving as other nations.
FACT: The United States is the most ethnically diverse country in the world. We are a nation of immigrants. As such, we live what you out there preach. There are Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Aetheists, Agnostics, Wiccans, and so on living on the SAME STREET CORNERS in RELATIVE PEACE.
Tell this to a minority living in the US. See how they feel about 'relative peace'. Not only are newcomers expected to assimilate, after doing so they are still ostracised. But don't take my word for it, ask an immgrant friend if you have one.
When you're talking to them, ask how their own traditional religious holidays grant them special leaves of abscences from work.
FACT: Americans have more civil liberties than any of the European "democracies" (the closest European state to America in terms of freedoms is the UK). We cherish them, because we have paid for them in blood.
Important points:
-Monitored electronic surveillance without warrants.
-Monetary transfer surveillance.
-Section 215 of the patriot act modifies the rules on records searches. Post-Patriot Act, third-party holders of your financial, library, travel, video rental, phone, medical, church, synagogue, and mosque records can be searched without your knowledge or consent, providing the government says it's trying to protect against terrorism. In addition, the person who forks over your records is gagged and cannot disclose the search to anyone.
Actually, just go and look up the patriot act yourself. Just this one act will suffice for argument's sake.
Benji Franklin put it best:
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. "
Your forefathers would roll over in their graves if they knew what was going on under G.W. Bush's reign of terror.
FACT: The US is the worlds oldest persisting democracy. All of those out there who criticize the US do so from a rather quaint position. Your nascent democracies (and you know who you are) sway ever more closely to socialism. Take care, too...when you slip into repression and anarchy again, or your neighbor does and invades you, who do you think it is that will step in and help? It's not the French, nor the Canadians, nor anyone else. It's America.
I didn't see America stepping in to stop the genocide in Rwanda. Nor other nations where there is little oil nor resources to benefit America.
In pseudo-socialist nations such as Canada, Sweden, Norway, etc, we have the highest standard of living. These nations are far from "slipping into repression and anarchy". Or am I wrong? We have our share of have-not people, but all are guaranteed basic services such as hospitalization and education, no matter what their economic situation is. What happens to a struggling family in the US when little Johnny has diabetes and no insurance? Johnny dies.
FACT: When the Old World tried to destroy itself SEVERAL TIMES, America stepped forward to push back the aggressors. And when your nations were in ruins after you had destroyed yourselves, it was America who rebuilt you, mostly at the cost of American jobs.
Old world destroy itself hmmm? America rebuilt nations hmmm? Last time I checked, historically speaking, many other nations than America layed down their children's lives to push back the aggressors. America stepped in only after it had been attacked.
Canada, France, UK joined WW2 in 1939. America, 1941.
From what I understand, most European nations that were devastated by Germany in WW2 were reconstructed by Russian aid, assimilating them into the USSR. That's another story though. However, America did little, relatively speaking, to improve the lives of Europeans and Pacific nations (aside from gobbling up the tiny islands) aside from helping redistribute German reparation.
FACT: MILLIONS of Americans have died fighting wars we did not start, and fighting for the lives and liberties of people we did not know. Name one other country that has done that!
Canada, UK, Australia, Japan, France, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Spain, Norway, Portugal, Russia....shall I continue?
America also started a lot of wars and interfered politically almost everywhere. It did so for the better or worse, but in all cases it was to promote its own agenda, which was usually anti-communist. Most involved installing puppet governments by using force or funding: Let's just look back a few years:
China: 1945-1949
Italy: 1947-48
Greece: 1947-1949
Philippines: 1945-1953
South Korea: 1945-1953
Albania: 1949-1953
Germany: 1950's. This meddling by the CIA (sabotage, terrorism, psychological warfare) was so bad that it was a factor in the erection of the Berlin wall.
Iran: 1953
Guatemala: 1953-1990's
All over the middle east: 1956-1958, Eisenhower Doctrine. The ol' "If you're not with us you're against us" trick.
Indonesia: 1957-1958
British Guyana: 1953 - 1954
Vietnam: 1950-1973
Cambodia: 1955-1973
Zaire: 1960-1965
Brazil: 1961-1964
Let's stop there and just mention a few other countries that the US has politically meddled with: Cuba, Dominican Republic, Chile, Nicaragua, Grenada, Libya, Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan, El Salvador, Haiti, Yugoslavia, and of course, Russia.
Top that off with a sprinkling of "Honduras, Belize, Mexico", and various other South American, African, Asian, and European nations and you have a nice colorful cake!
FACT: The United States imports hundreds of billions of dollars worth of goods per year more than we ship out, and we do so not because we need the products, but out of good will. We certainly do not need clothes from China, or semiconductors from Taiwan, or steel from Europe...we can and do produce what we need domestically. But we buy from you folks abroad because if we didn't your economies would collapse.
You are simply an idiot if you believe that this is out of charity. American corporations actively exploit nations because of their cheaper labor, materials, and currency. If it were cheaper to make shoes in the US, by all means, these other nations would be left out in the cold.
FACT: Europe is DYING. Most EU countries show stagnating population and economic growth.
How much was the American dollar worth at the time of it's introduction? How much is it worth vs the Euro now?
FACT: The reason Europe and Canada can afford to be so smug in their own "righteousness" is because they live under the umbrella of freedom the US provides. Without our "evil" military, your nations would be forced to defend themselves, and therefore you could not afford such things as universal health care. And you certainly could not give so much money away to the third world.
Last time I checked, these countries had their own militaries. With their own budgets. That CHOOSE to support American 'intervention' when they felt. And they also have health care.
If I recall correctly, America tried to invade Canada way back when. Sure, today it's a different story. The idea is that America acts only when it benefits America. Look at Hamas. Hezbollah. Democratically elected. Isreal is the leading recipient of US foreign aid. Add this up in your mind.
There is no doubt however, if say Canada, was attacked, America would intervene. And vice versa. But again, if Canada were a democratic communist nation at the time we would be invaded, things would probably be different.
Please refer to Lebanon or Palestine for a practical modern reference. While Isreal is bombarding the shit out of these countries, America is sitting back and sending dollars to Isreal. Why? I'd venture to say 'ideals' and 'values', but I'll just sum it up by saying that America doesn't like little extreme Islamic Nations.
FACT: When the tsunami hit in the Indian Ocean, the US was criticized for not doing enough, even though it donated the most money towards relief and sent tens of thousands of military personnel to the region, at a cost of many billions, all without thanks.
I'm tired of listing things to you.
Look at the chart on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_response_to_the_2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake
America is nowhere even close to Australia, Canada, Finland, Spain, etc. for support. Sure, they dumped in a whack of cash and resources, but nowhere near what could be considered 'generous' for a nation as traditionally giving as America.
It is you, world, who are racism. It is you, world, who are arrogant. It is you, world, who are unbending, intolerant, belligerent, ungrateful, and reprehensible. I think that is the real reason you hate us Americans. We are everything you think you are, and more. Take the generousity you believe you show, multiple it by ten, and that is America.
Yeah? Well we love YOU infinity plus 1.
Trust us, the world is grateful to the US for what it has done. We appreciate America even though we have little love spats from time to time. We may be smug and have an air of superiority about us, but that's because, quantitatively speaking, we can sometimes.
American democracy is the pillar of the modern world, no doubt about it. We all owe something or other to America. But now America is lacking. It's time for America to catch up -qualitatively speaking- to it's brethern who have been inspired by the great nation of America. It owes it to it's people to become the best again, like it once was only recently. I say this with all humility and sincerity.
Being hegemon is not easy. But if you dislike the current world order, than, by all means, replace us. I am sure communist China, a nation which brutally supresses its own people, or democratic (choke!) Russia, with its everlasting aspirations towards empire, would love to take that rule. You can have them, world, and we Americans will sit by, with all our pesky liberties and ideals and technology and education, and watch as your once proud, and even virtuous, nations turn to ash under the tyranny of authoritarian sure.
By comparing America to Russia and China you are doing your own nation an injustice. Compare your strong, vibrant culture to other strong cultures and see how you stack up. There is plenty of room for improvement for every nation, including the United States.
You have a right to be a proud American. Don't debase yourself by pointing fingers at the rest of the world on behalf of your country. I have provided mere facts in areas where America can do better (and of course America can claim superiority in other areas). By all means, my own country -Canada- could do much better than it is as well.
PhysicsGuy46 said: "Yeah, this is just funny. The last time I checked, terrorists have been launching rockets into Israel for quite some time now, and when those same terrorists captured two Israeli soldiers, only then did the IDF move in. Go on, keep blaming America and Israel for responding to defend themselves from terrorists. The Lebanese people are suffering, and that is unfortunate. But should the Israeli people suffer in their place for doing nothing other than existing. The last time I checked, the people of Lebanon allowed radical Islam to take control of half their country, while keeping the other half as a welcome area for more radicals to flood in from Syria. Nice try!"
Only someone who is inherently evil (or Jewish/Zionist) would try to justify the obliteration of Lebanon with the kidnapping of two Jewish soldiers (whose mission apparently was to get kidnapped so Isreal could then destroy Lebanon).
The level of destruction that Israel and the US visited upon Lebanon by no means matches the alleged "crime" of kidnapping two Isreali soldiers.
The laws of man from age old times believe in fairness.
But apparently you do not. Apparently Arabs do not deserve fairness. The only way Arabs do not deserve fairness is if you are a racist.
As for many Lebanese being Islamic in their religion, maybe you have heard of this:
FREEDOM OF RELIGION.
It is in the Bill of Rights.
But you don't appear to care about that.
Do you even recognize Arabs as people with human rights?
Because right now, you look like you are just another Neo-Fascist on a mission of Arab genocide.
"We can see that the heathens in France not only surpass US foreign aid per capita, but double it. Not only is the US on the bottom of the list, it isn't even close to many other industrial nations. Not that what it contributes isn't good, but per capita, people in America (due to policy, granted) aren't as giving as other nations. "
Interesting thoughts...did you notice I said nothing about per capita? I said the US gives the most aid, which you stats support in dollar amount. But I also said material support, like the tsunami relief. When you combine the two, our giving, even per capita, has no equal.
Sigh. Sure, America is able to pump out more money than anybody else. It does deserve credit for that, regardless of the reasons. How about those French though? That figure surprised me when I looked it up, gotta give them credit as well. Damn French.
"Tell this to a minority living in the US. See how they feel about 'relative peace'. Not only are newcomers expected to assimilate, after doing so they are still ostracised. But don't take my word for it, ask an immgrant friend if you have one."
My friend, I am a minority. I grew up in the inner city. Newcomers do not assimilate into American culture, they add to it. We are the summation of many different and wonderful traditions. I needn't ask an immigrant, though I do have more than one, because my grandmother is an immigrant. And I've asked her already...she lovers her life here, and she wouldn't go back to Italy for anything. Just for the record, I have friends from China, Japan, Taiwan, Poland, Liberia, India, and Russia, all of whom I know in person. Can you say the say the same?
I'm glad you and your family are happy. That's good to hear, and I never meant to say that EVERYONE that immigrates to America is unhappy. I DO know that a lot of immigrants are unhappy in the same breath though, especially if they don't fit the mold. I have had a lot of friends from all over the place, Poland, Russia, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, and many more. Their experience here in Canada may be different than in America and it would be unfair for me to base my comments on the few that have moved from their home countries to the US and then to Canada and told me of their experiences.
I HAVE lived in a few other countries myself. Honduras, Mexico, and briefly in Guatemala and Malaysia among other nations - but these in particular was where I was a visible minority. What I experienced there as an 'immigrant' was not comparable to the disdain shown to immigrant that I saw firsthand in the United States, which is sad. It happens here in Canada as well...I grew up in redneck boonies, I see how hurtful it can be for immigrants, especially Arab immigrants since 9/11.
We can dance around this all we want, but the truth is that in America, and indeed Canada and other westernized nations, there is a lot of outward anger expressed to people from Arab nations.
"Actually, just go and look up the patriot act yourself. Just this one act will suffice for argument's sake."
Like many Americans, I do not agree with the Patriot Act. But that is a personal aside. At any rate, to use this one fact to disprove America as having the most civil liberties is a poor reflection on your argumentation abilities. Simply because a bad piece of legislation was written does not mean that the whole of America's liberties are undone. You have the Patriot Act, fine. I have the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution and its 27 Amendments, and 200 years of case law on my side. You seem to be a bright individual, but your knowledge of America is lacking.
I'm glad you don't support this act. I may not be as knowledgable about American politics, but I do see attempts in the American government to censor and control media. I see people afraid to speak freely. People can be locked up for no reason other than the suspicion that they are consorting with or are terrorists.
To be honest, this act alone is similar to Communist-regime tactics. I'm afraid that any other liberties are rendered meaningless because of this act and strongly disagree with you on this point. If you can't speak to your neighbor for fear they will rat you and and you'll be sent to Guantanamo, what is the purpose of discourse, nay, life?. Granted, most Americans have nothing to fear from this, still, the opportunity is there, and I'm not sure that Iranians calling home will feel so free to discuss political matters.
I read a poll that states 48% disagree with this act and 48% agree with it. Sorry, I don't have a source for it, but it was shocking to see how many people will let this go, and you're not one of them. You deserve credit for this.
"I didn't see America stepping in to stop the genocide in Rwanda."
And where was Canada?
L. General Romeo Dallaire is accepted by many Canadians and foreigners as a true hero. He was the Canadian General in charge of the UN Peacekeeping mission in Rwanda who defied orders to pull out when the genocide occured. He sums it up:
"I blame the American leadership, which includes the Pentagon, in projecting itself as the world policeman one day and a recluse the next," Dallaire says.
"In fact, vulgarly stating in the General Assembly three weeks before the Rwandan genocide and civil war started, I mean, president Clinton saying in the General Assembly that through his Proposition 25 that Americans would go only if it was in their self-interest."
"What happens to a struggling family in the US when little Johnny has diabetes and no insurance? Johnny dies."
Again, you seem to lack a little knowledge. Though we do not have national health care, we are far from lacking in insurance. Most Americans have insurance through their places of work. If they do not, and they cannot affrod to purchase it, the government will provide for them (I know, my family was on government assistance when I was a child). But to more directly answer your point, there is no child in this country that is without medical care. Indeed, if the federal goverment would not cover it, which it does, the states would, as is the case here in Pennsylvania. Moreover, it is federal law that no hospital may deny care do anyone, no matter what. I know this first hand as well...my father works for one of the world's largest medical centers. Now what about little Johnny?
Okay, Johnny won't die. However. In America 45 million people don't have any health care. 45 million! 4-5 m-i-l-l-i-o-n. 74% of these people are employed! 8.5 million children do not have health care. Americans pay on avergae $1 out of every $6 spent on health care. Medical institutions will keep people in the poorhouse, Johnny's daddy will work a lot of overtime every week and mommy will have to pick up every extra shift she can at Wal-Mart for the rest of her life because of Johnny's diabetes.
"Old world destroy itself hmmm? America rebuilt nations hmmm? Last time I checked, historically speaking, many other nations than America layed down their children's lives to push back the aggressors. America stepped in only after it had been attacked.
Canada, France, UK joined WW2 in 1939. America, 1941."
Tensions between the UK, France, and Germany go back quite a long way. Are you trying to say that France declared war on Germany because they cared so much about Poland? Haha, try again. They wanted to hurt the Germans like the Germans had hurt them in WWI. The only problem is that they lost.
America may not have gotten involved if it weren't for the fact that they were attacked and is not alone in this respect. However, other nations became involved for other reasons than self-interest.
Also, the last time I checked, the US was attacked by Japan, not Germany.
Pearl Harbor was mereley the straw that broke the camel's back. America's ships had been attacked by German naval units previously. In fact, Germany declared war on America shortly after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. We won't know if America would have stepped up to the plate otherwise, and I dare not speculate. Sufficed to say, it was a defensive posture. America had been supporting European nations fighting back the Germans, of course, but would not actively join in the fight until they had no other option. Thank God they did, we all owe America more than we can ever repay for this fact.
We had been supporting the only sovereign state left in western Europe, the UK, for quite some time before committing military forces to invasions of Africa, Italy, and then France, all the while still fighting Japan. Now, I will not dishonor the memory of those who fought for freedom under different flags than my own. But you maintain, as many here have, that the US is tyrannical and imperialistic is to disrespect those millions who have fought for everyone's freedom.
Yes, the US had been imperialistic and tyrannical, to be blunt. From the list of countries I gave you, please feel to do a bit of research and see exactly how I came to this conclusion. However, that was then and this is now.
America currently denounces 'rogue nations' such as Iran, Venezuela, North Korea, Iraq (sort-of), and even little tiny Lebanon and Palestine don't get much of a break. Why? They refuse to be dominated by American interference.
America propped up Saddam Hussein and gave him his power. Hugo Chavez is a hero and I hope inspires other nations, but is branded as a villian. Kim Jong Il is a petty little dictator, however, America chooses to do very little to intervene because, arguably, there are very little in the way of resources in North Korea to exploit. Iran, again, is under America's thumb not because of nukes, but because of oil exports and currency matters much like Iraq was at the end of Saddam Husseins regime.
America, England, and Spain have always bartered little countries back and forth between them like they were poker chips. The story is much the same, except the players are America versus the free will of the victim nations. America does not sit back and watch nations determine their own destiny, however horrible it may be sometimes.
"However, America did little, relatively speaking, to improve the lives of Europeans and Pacific nations (aside from gobbling up the tiny islands) aside from helping redistribute German reparation."
Have you ever heard of the Marshall Plan? America rebuilt the UK, France (to a much lesser extent, mostly because of French pride), Italy, (west) Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria...need I go on? We provided tens of billions of dollars to rebuild cities and infrastructures. And we sent thousands of personnel to oversee the rebuilding. But, you are right, eastern Europe was assimilated by the USSR. We couldn't help them, but we would have, if given the chance. And FYI, we completely rebuilt Japan's infrastructure.
The money from the Marshall plan was given freely to nations because the money would return back to America, which had the only economy strong enough to supply these new demands of helpless nations. In fact, it was expected that nations repay their loans, which many never did. The plan was selective, however, and merely helped speed up recovery in nations that were 'western thinking'. In other words, it was a not-so-subtle example again of American imperialism. In fact, nations that did not receive any or much help via the Marshall plan were quicker to be revived.
Japan was NOT rebuilt by America. Japan did it by themselves because of innvoations and change in society that happened as a result of WW2.
"Blah blah blah about Americans starting wars..."
I would list all of the European nations that have meddled in the world and started wars, but, to be concise, I shall just direct you to your nearest listing of all of the world's counties. I do have one thing to point out, though. You're right, Canada never started a war. You know why? Shock! They only gained autonomy in 1926 with the Balfour Resolution. And they even remain under the British crown, Queen Elizabeth II being the Canadian Head of State. Now, what was that about Americans interfering in the world?
To think the Queen of England has any power in modern Canadian society is silly. She is a figurehead, or some sort of token that we don't pay homage to except through government rituals and hokey representatives that gobble up taxpayer money.
You're right though, when I was a kid a long long time ago (*cough* many*mumble*odd....years ago) we had to pay tribute to the Queen every morning before school started. Canada never started a war that I know of and rarely interferes in other nations politics, not to say it's perfect, as I'm sure that at some point it was doing its best to combat communism in some way or form.
When compared to other nations, and you may argue this, America has seen no peers in terms of political interference in modern times. Especially when the nation that is being interfered with has valuable resources. You may call this a coincidence, but I don't.
And again, I'm in favor of some of the meddling that America has done. I'm not in favor of communism and am glad that America did help halt the spread, however I strongly believe that it's up to nations to decide for themselves whatever they choose. As long as it's done fairly. Some of the tactics used by the CIA were worse than anything you'd see in a Tarantino flick and the responsible people should have been hung.
"You are simply an idiot if you believe that this is out of charity. American corporations actively exploit nations because of their cheaper labor, materials, and currency. If it were cheaper to make shoes in the US, by all means, these other nations would be left out in the cold.
All world corporations exploit cheap labor, the US is no exception. That aside, what is it cheaper to do: buy German steel and have it shipped 4 thousand miles to the US or produce it ourselves? And textile production in this country is almost completely automated. Machines don't need fed, my dear Canadian friend.
Yes, the US is no exception. The US is responsible for so much innovation and money influxes to smaller nations and we're seeing the empowerment of developing nations every day as a result which must be frightening to American corporations.
However, philanthropy is not a factor in the equation, it is merely a byproduct. German products, let's say, ARE cheaper than US products. You can attribute this to unionization, through which the American civilization drove some nails in its own coffin which was most visible in the 80's.
Again, the strong sense of pride in American home made products shines through the murkiness of corporate cut throats - occasionally. I'd say that if price wasn't the factor though, American's would buy everything from themselves that they could. But prices ARE the factor; jobs are outsourced to India, steel is bought from China, your Tv is made in Japan and your Kia in Korea.
"How much was the American dollar worth at the time of it's introduction? How much is it worth vs the Euro now?"
If the exchange rate of a nation's currency is the measure of the economic might of a nation, then we should all send a sympathy card to Japan, whose Yen is worth less than 100th that of an American dollar. I believe our dollar is also valued about 25% higher than the Canadian dollar as well.
Not quite - 10-15% more on exchanges and falling steadily.
The deal is that the USD is losing it's power. People are trading commodities in other currencies. Oil in particular is facing being traded globally in Euros more and more every day. The US used its leverage to force nations to trade oil in USD's, thereby ensuring that it will always win. This is changing. America will soon lose the power of the almighty dollar and it's currency will once again be fairly traded, however, it faces a trillion dollar defecit that it will never be able to repay.
I could go tit-for-tat with you all night long, but I don't think you would really get it. Just as a note, tell me you have something better to cite than wikipedia???
Nah, just things I know. Some things I make up just for fun. ;)
But hey, what am I not getting?
I grow weary of people's mindless criticism. This is me, begging to differ. I will end by nothing this: your ability to bitch endlessly about how horrible America is has been gratefully provided for by, you guessed it, the United States. We invented the internet (although hats off to those guys at CERN for the World Wide Web). We control it, yes, as an economic interest, but also to keep it the free and open medium that it is today, much in keeping with American ideals of freedom.
Is the internet a free medium? Only Google knows. If Google were to sway under capitalist power, which it is bordering, the world would take a long time to recover. We're getting back to the point of this post now.
But I digress. (haha)
America has it's issues just like everyone else. I am merely stating *arguable* facts.
If you and I sat here in the same room I would feel no hostility towards you simply because you are an American. In fact, you are quite intelligent, probably moreso than I, and I appreciate that. I appreciate the things that have come as a result of America. I even appreciate morally wrong actions that the US has taken that coincide with my own beliefs, guilty as charged. I'm not perfect.
However, the US has a lot of catching up to do. It is NOT the best nation in the world and hasn't been for a long while, and I can think of a dozen or so countries that could rightfully claim the title away from America with very little to argue about (Canada is certainly a viable option). For the resources the United States has it certainly does not compete.
American people do though. Nothing hath no fury such as an American that has been criticised!
Actually, I guess I should end by noting that I should proof read what I write for grammatical errors before I post something :)
It's the thought that counts, and your thoughts are very intelligent and reasonable. No one could fault you for a few typos in such a good post.
"It is you, world, who are racism. It is you, world, who are arrogant. It is you, world, who are unbending, intolerant, belligerent, ungrateful, and reprehensible."
Mark these words. They are from a proud American. They show the state of mind, i.e., arrogant, unbending, intolerant, belligerent, ungrateful, irreprehensible, and probably racism, of (many) Americans.
Had these words been said from someone from Europe or Asia, I'd have given it a bit more credit. But an American saying such things blatantly himself, it makes me ashamed of being an American.
Every day a little bit of this so-called "Freedom" is takin' away in the United States. I don't wish to start a political war, but George Bush is a tyranical imperialist looking to control the world. Democracies are supposed to be about choice, and forcing things upon people is dictatorial, yet Bush is trying to force Democracy onto countries, isn't that oxymoronish?
This may be the first thing I have agreed with you on Mad Mod.
Democracies do not work, Dictatorships work; with the right dictator of course. Alot of people don't want the responsibility of choice, they want easy life and let other people make the tough choices for them, add that in with money in the Middle East, and Democracy will never work. You'll have business's and mafia-esque organizations controlling everything. Democracy doesn't work. Period.
Ewwww, should have read the rest of your post. I am not ready to write democracy off as a political system. It is inefficient and on paper democracies should work and they probably work better in smaller populations. However, I agree that our American democracy is badly broken. Why is there just a two party system in the country to represent all the different viewpoints in the US? Why do other countries routinely have 3,4 or even 5 different parties who regularly represent contituents? Voting system and the way political money can be raised and spent. It is no coincidence that we have had a two party system for sooo many years. Who do you think makes the laws that might break up this duopoly? Well, the two parties that are currently in control so it WILL NOT CHANGE unless there is a movement outside the political process that forces a change. If you're tired of a two party rule (that's is only one party away from a fascist state) then you need to start voting in candidates who represent your views and not just the lesser of the two evils. Also, petition at a local level for fairer campaign rules or for a proportional voting system.
Sorry for being off topic it seems like the Journal for Pervasive computing has become a Bash Intel site which is not pleasant.
PhysicsGuy46 wrote:
It is an historical fact that democracies do not war with one another. It is also a fact that the model of the United States has been emulated by every stable, industrialized country around the world. The United States is the metric by which every person on this Earth measures the success of his own country.
I think you need to get out of the country more. For one thing, Lebanon and Israel are at war. Both are "democracies" so that disproves your assertion. Perhaps you meant "As a rule of thumb..." Also in the future, with more "democracies" springing up but also more contention for resources I would expect that rule to start breaking down. I use "democracy" in quotes because democracies can be implemented in many ways and some ways that actually subvert the will of the electorate. (For example popular vote vs. electoral college in the U.S. re: outcome of 2000 US presidential election)
Also, you're using the US as a metric for success is absurd. That may have been true in Europe after WWII but not these days. They are going down their own path. New countries still will read the US constitution as a model for creating a constitution but even Iraq which is a modern creation of the US has a very different type of constitution and government (which may not last long). Other countries realize that the US economic model (which is a product of our political laisez-fair attitude) is not sustainable. It doesn't scale well if you try to apply it to the 7 billion people across the globe. I think Americans should start asking themselves ... "Do we really want the rest of the world living as we do? Can the planet sustain that?" I think the answer should be obvious. Finally, things haven't always been this way in America, there was a time where there was a progressive socialist movement. There was a time when 1% of the population did not control 40% of the wealth. Things can be better and that doesn't mean there has to be class warfare. It does mean that our political "leaders" need to start listening to their constituents more and not the people who give them the biggest campaign contributions. That doesn't happen unless your political "leaders" hear more from YOU!
Edward said...
"But an American saying such things blatantly himself, it makes me ashamed of being an American."
To be ashamed by someone elses actions or statements is only showing your lack of understanding the freedoms you have.
You do not have to agree, nor listen, just accept people have different frames of mind and backgrounds than you or I, America is large and diverse, and it is there right to say what they think.
Don't be ashamed, try and understand your ability to be free and have choices others do not.
I am proud to be an American, and wish more people had what I have.
"To be ashamed by someone elses actions or statements is only showing your lack of understanding the freedoms you have."
Well, I'd be proud to be a modest and open-minded American. I believe such modesty and open mind actually benefit America more in the long run. I'm ashamed of those Americans saying ignorant and arrogant words to the rest of the world, because those not only help none of the American/world problems, but also show the world how self-centric and selfish this country seems to be.
It is NEVER a good thing for any nation to alienate itself with the rest of the world in today's internationalized environment: you either become a dictator or a loser. Such tragic behavior has nothing to do with my understanding of freedom, but his. In fact, his "freedom" to make those pompous claims actually hurts other Americans' freedom to interact better with the world. All just to make himself feel high for like a few paragraphs?
"The United States is the metric by which every person on this Earth measures the success of his own country."
That's precisely why there are so many failed democracies supported by or emulating the United States.
Just because people in other countries are stupid to follow you doesn't make you a good leader. And which successful and stable democracy is following America's model? Do you really know world politics?
"For one thing, Lebanon and Israel are at war."
Really, I was not aware of this. I know Hezbollah(sp?) and Israel were/are at war but wasn't aware Lebanon was too... thanks for the (mis)information.
jajajaja... Very funny your analisys of the movie, I like it. But in matters of political analisys your are dead... have a look at this site, by example (it is in spanish). I guest you have never lived or know a close person who lived in a comunist or totalitarian country, like Venezuela is today, or Siria, or Iran, or Iraq was, or North Korea, etc, etc...
like Venezuela is today
I think Chavez is a great guy. 100% social justice, no exploitation by the rich. What's wrong with that?
use your freedom to evolve as a human being.. You can not evolve by opressing people..
History already recorded that in the last 10 years at least, we were the agressors..
"As a final note, I will admit that I am arrogant, as are my countrymen from time to time. We make mistakes all the time, but, for the most part, we try to do what we think is right, even if you don't understand or agree with it."
Don't mix the usage of 'you' and 'your countrymen'. No offense, but you should know better that you do not represent your countrymen, and in fact, I believe/hope you don't.
"As a final note, I will admit that I am arrogant, as are my countrymen from time to time. We make mistakes all the time, but, for the most part, we try to do what we think is right, even if you don't understand or agree with it."
Don't mix the usage of 'you' and 'your countrymen'. No offense, but you should know better that you do not represent your countrymen, and in fact, I believe/hope you don't.
Physicsguy46 is intelligent, composed, and well spoken. As a representative of the US (whether claimed or not), you couldn't ask for much better.
The figurehead of the US, GWB (great white bonehead) has none of these qualities. Same with Canada's previous PM, Jean 'Poutine' Chretian. Well, he was kinda conniving so you could call him 'smart' I guess, but that's it.
Truth be told, as soon as someone knows where you're from, you're automatically speaking for your countrymates if you're in the company of people from other countries. Gotta be on yer best behaviour for your country!
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