Thursday, February 22, 2007

X2 3600+ + Doom3 MB for $129

This is unreal. For $129, get a dual core CPU that beats Pentium XE 965 and a motherboard capable of Doom 3. None of Intel's graphics is Doom capable.

37 Comments:

Blogger Wirmish said...

Bad link.

9:13 AM, February 22, 2007  
Blogger Dr. Yield, PhD, MBA said...

Ignoring the "no Doom3 capable Intel graphics comment", how do you propose that this is a good thing for AMD? Let's break it down, shall we?

1. Do you think at this price, AMD is making a profit?

2. Even if AMD is making a profit, do you think they are generating sufficient return on capital selling processors this cheap? Sufficient return is generating cash that can fund growth of the company and provide a return to the owners (shareholders). And yes, this is a relevant concern- if AMD can't generate sufficient capital themselves, they need to go to the capital markets for more $. The cost of that money depends on whether or not the markets think AMD can... you guessed it- generate a good return on the money. Higher risk==higher cost.

3. Why does it matter that this cheap, likely loss leader solution beats what Intel can do? If AMD wants to lose money on a trailing edge processor, isn't that their business? Share at any cost? And before you tell me it reduces Intel inventories of P4-based CPUs to worthless, that's clearly not true. Plenty of places still sell lots of Intel CPUs, and at prices higher than the processor referenced in your post. The evidence is right in front of you that they aren't worthless.

So yippee! AMD can clear out trailing edge processors for little to no profit. Great for Joe Consumer (hell, the 3400+MB at $95 might be an even better deal), but this does not translate to good for AMD. Not as a business anyway.

9:16 AM, February 22, 2007  
Blogger Roborat, Ph. D. said...

That is great!
I'm sure Intel is panicking while shedding some market share points in this lucrative under-$130 gaming segment.

Surely Intel BK in Q2'08 is further guaranteed.

2:42 PM, February 22, 2007  
Blogger lex said...

Sharikou again shows why he is a PhD pretender.. what a disaster for AMD that they are giving away the farm to move a few units. Things must be pretty grim in Hector's la la land.

I say BK in 2008 for sure with this kind of strategy...

Poor AMD and it aint no joke they are going to be poor

7:29 PM, February 22, 2007  
Blogger SurJector said...

 None of Intel's graphics is Doom capable.

But all Intel's graphics have working open-source drivers and, at least for most of them, are 3d-destkop compatible (for Linux obviously, not for the resource hog that Windows is).

1:42 AM, February 23, 2007  
Blogger Ho Ho said...

surjector
"for Linux obviously, not for the resource hog that Windows is"

They work good enough for Windows too.

4:37 AM, February 23, 2007  
Blogger m0rk said...

Its to bad that you dont even seem relize that your talking about two very diffrent things. First of all you need a heatsink for your cpu, since you linked to a OEM sample. Then you need to mainboard etc.

Btw: What in Jubba the huts all mighty fat does the cpu prize have to do with graphics?
You can get a Intel 820 for a lower prize then 3600+.
You still need a standalone gpu to even be able to play Doom 3.

And btw: Does AMD gpu`s you seem to think AMD devolped came out the production line way before AMD aquired ATi.

4:59 AM, February 23, 2007  
Blogger PENIX said...

Apple should adopt AMD processors. I want a Mac Mini, but I do not want an Intel processor. If they made them with AMD processors, I would purchase one without question.

8:07 AM, February 23, 2007  
Blogger Not Penix said...

Once again your english is lacking, usually PHD's use proper english. Good for you your comparing a low end cpu from AMD to a last generation highend CPU from intel. They were never meant to compete. Why not group the x2 3600 with the E4300 that would make a bit more sence.

When has intel ever stated that they have capable gaming cards? They havn't anyone in their right mind would not expect intel graphics to run D3.

I"m disappointed, your posts are getting worse and worse

8:35 AM, February 23, 2007  
Blogger Azary Omega said...

m0rk said...
You still need a standalone gpu to even be able to play Doom 3.


Wrong. One of the MoBo combos are nvidia 6150 <-- can run doom 3 just fine.

m0rk said...
You can get a Intel 820 for a lower prize then 3600+.


..Which has about two thirds of the performance of X2 3600+.

m0rk said...
Then you need to mainboard etc.


You didn't realize that he was talking about COMBO that newegg sells? At least read whats on the other side of the link before making statements, cause those statements as I've just proved are not true and are misleading (a.k.a. FUD).

I'm disappointed, your posts are getting worse and worse.

3:14 PM, February 23, 2007  
Blogger Dave said...

yeah, to everyone who was complaining about this just being a CPU and no graphics/mobo, look at the combo deals. One of them includes a motherboard with an onboard NVIDIA GeForce 6100. The total price of this combo deal (mobo and CPU) is $129, just like he said.

"Good for you your comparing a low end cpu from AMD to a last generation highend CPU from intel. They were never meant to compete."

what do you mean these were never meant to compete? Remember back before Core2Duo, when the AMD 64 X2 and the Pentium D were competing(or rather, the AMD's were competing, the Intel P-D's were just losing). So yes, the X2's were competing with the P-D's. Also, Intel is still making and selling Pentium CPU's, which are now, of course, very low end chips. So, why wouldn't these be made to compete? Intel may have called this a "high end" cpu, but in fact, AMD's lowest-end dual cores were beating these "high end" chips. So, they were never really high end, even when they first came out.

7:18 PM, February 23, 2007  
Blogger Raayee said...

Sharikou,

I remember you posted a peice a while ago answering a blogger on how Intel would survive. Your answser was to the effect that Intel should raise prices and fire some people.

Now, it seems AMD is in a tough cash shortage. Would you advise them to do the same?

fairbalanced.blogspot.com

7:19 PM, February 23, 2007  
Blogger abinstein said...

"Ignoring the "no Doom3 capable Intel graphics comment", how do you propose that this is a good thing for AMD?"

You have to understand that this combo sale is not systematic, but more because AMD (or Newegg) happens to have a few more 3600+ around. These chips are more like the "by product" of those from 3800+ to 5600+ - they are not even worth to be packaged. By any account, you don't calculate the profit of "selling 3600+" alone from the rest of the K8 line. You simply can't cut the tail off the normal distribution and call it a profit or a loss.

7:33 PM, February 23, 2007  
Blogger Azary Omega said...

abinstein said...
You have to understand that this combo sale is not systematic, but more because AMD (or Newegg) happens to have a few more 3600+ around. These chips are more like the "by product" of those from 3800+ to 5600+ - they are not even worth to be packaged.


Let me correct you sir. X2 3600+ is a 65nm chip with full cache available to rev F model. It cant be related to X2 3800+ in any way because there are no X2 3800+ on 65nm node made. It also cant be a byproduct of anything because it comes with 512Kx2 out of 512Kx2 possible on any 65nm chip from AMD to date.

Furthermore, regarding your comment about "they are not even worth to be packaged" - this is simply isn't so. Both AMD and intel have 40$ chips that they package AND make money on yet here you are referring to a 90$ product.

You sir are not familiar with IT industry and are making fun of yourself.

8:03 PM, February 23, 2007  
Blogger PENIX said...

Raayee said...
fairbalanced.blogspot.com


You spammed the wrong URL to your own blog. The correct URL to your blog is:
http://fairdebate.blogspot.com/

10:33 PM, February 23, 2007  
Blogger m0rk said...

Azary Omega said...
Wrong. One of the MoBo combos are nvidia 6150 <-- can run doom 3 just fine.

Are you insane? At what FPS? http://www.pcstats.com/ArtVNL.cfm?articleid=1900&page=15
At thos low FPS it not possible to play. Ohh yeah you can start it, but playing it? I think not.

Azary Omega said...
..Which has about two thirds of the performance of X2 3600+.

Preformance was not the question here. And if so, then explain what good Doom 3 is at those low fps speeds?

Azary Omega said...
You didn't realize that he was talking about COMBO that newegg sells? At least read whats on the other side of the link before making statements, cause those statements as I've just proved are not true and are misleading (a.k.a. FUD).

Then mr.smartass would you please provide a link to any test where Doom 3 is playble with Nvidia6150? Good luck, your gonna need it. Optimal FPS for doom 3 is 60, as goes for all other games that uses doom 3 graphic enginge. Maybe you should check your facts first.

4:44 AM, February 24, 2007  
Blogger Azary Omega said...

m0rk said...
Then mr.smartass would you please provide a link to any test where Doom 3 is playble with Nvidia6150?


Okay http://www.pcstats.com/ArtVNL.cfm?articleid=1900&page=15

Foxconn WinFast 6150K8MA-8EKRS (GF6150 200/400 Onboard Video) 21.1 fps (human eye stops recognizing change of frames at 16fps)

Then mr.smartass would you please provide a link to any test where Doom 3 is playble with Nvidia6150? Good luck, your gonna need it.Optimal FPS for doom 3 is 60, as goes for all other games that uses doom 3 graphic enginge. Maybe you should check your facts first.

Wrong. I wont need luck. I just proved to you (using by the way, your own link) that doom 3 can play on 6150.

5:57 AM, February 24, 2007  
Blogger m0rk said...

Azary Omega said..
Foxconn WinFast 6150K8MA-8EKRS (GF6150 200/400 Onboard Video) 21.1 fps (human eye stops recognizing change of frames at 16fps)

Are you retarded? Do you actually know what motion blur is? Go back to school, or atleast finish high school. Better yet, actually try playing any modern game with that low FPS. Your obviously in need of studing, here is a good read for ya: http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm

I would also like to take the time to make a quote from id software support

"The Magic Number - 60 FPS
Unlike previous games from id software in multiplayer you only need to achieve a steady frame rate of 60 FPS. Anything higher is simply ignored by Doom3's world update and player movement code. This will help even the playing field in multiplayer as physics will be the same on all machines. There appear to be cvars and hints in the game (#define GAME_FPS 60 and com_fixedtic) that with a mod servers could possibly alter the default tic rate, even if that were the case all players would still be forced to the server's game tic.

John Carmack of id sofware: "The game tic simulation, including player movement, runs at 60hz, so if it rendered any faster, it would just be rendering identical frames. A fixed tic rate removes issues like Quake 3 had, where some jumps could only be made at certain framerates. In Doom, the same player inputs will produce the same motions, no matter what the framerate is.""

And also ask that you actually read the fine print under the graphs of pcstats, wich clearly states the following:

"In the final benchmark of the day, playing Doom 3 with the onboard videocard is not really possible. With a standalone graphics card there is no difference between the Geforce 6150 and nForce 4 systems."

Try doing some reading before you open you mouth

6:50 AM, February 24, 2007  
Blogger Louis said...

"I'm sure Intel is panicking while shedding some market share points in this lucrative under-$130 gaming segment."

Yep, that's where all the money is. That lucrative under $130 segment. Remember he's talking about $130 for MB and CPU. I don't call that lucrative for either AMD or Intel. It is suicide for AMD to continue to play this game since they can't make a profit selling at these prices. HOwever, it may be better than throwing their near worthless product in landfills.

10:37 AM, February 24, 2007  
Blogger Louis said...

Hey Sharikou... How much do you want to wager on your prediction of Intel bankruptcy in Q2 2008? I'll even give you 2:1 odds on a $100 wager. I say they won't bankrupt. Care to put your money where your mouth is? Or are you too afraid you'll be wrong again?

10:43 AM, February 24, 2007  
Blogger PENIX said...

Azary Omega owned m0rk when he said...
Wrong. I wont need luck. I just proved to you (using by the way, your own link) that doom 3 can play on 6150.


What is the reason for such a huge difference in performance between the onboard and the stand alone GPUs?

11:31 AM, February 24, 2007  
Blogger Azary Omega said...

Better yet, actually try playing any modern game with that low FPS.

And i do. Do you actually know that most games ARE being played with FPS under 20? People simply don't buy video cards capable of providing better performance. At least try to do a research before you claim something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate
QUOTE: "The first 3D first-person adventure game for a personal computer, 3D Monster Maze, had a frame rate of approximately 6 fps, and was still a success, being playable and addictive. In modern action-oriented games where players must visually track animated objects and react quickly, frame rates of approximately 25 to 30 fps are considered minimally acceptable, though this can vary significantly from game to game."

My claim was that 21fps is acceptable for playing while you claim that 60 or even as much as 100 is needed. I think you mistook FPS rate for a flicker fusion threshold. Later is dependant on your monitor and is NOT influenced by FPS in some game.

You said "Try doing some reading before you open you mouth", well, makes you that next time YOU do actually read something. I rest my case.

1:10 PM, February 24, 2007  
Blogger Azary Omega said...

PENIX said...
What is the reason for such a huge difference in performance between the onboard and the stand alone GPUs?


Power consumption is often the limit. Some people might argue that use of main memory is the limiting factor, that simply isn't so. In reality embedded graphics GPU resides on the same peace of silicon with north or south bridge and in the same power plane. So embedded graphics GPU can't be clocked higher than north/south bridge while power consumption is the limiting factor for number of pipelines (vertex and shadowing).

Note: in upcoming "fusion" GPU is in a different power plane.

1:26 PM, February 24, 2007  
Blogger Raayee said...

Thanks Penix. You are right, my spot is: http://fairdebate.blogspot.com

5:33 PM, February 24, 2007  
Blogger Jarrad said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11:50 PM, February 24, 2007  
Blogger Randy Allen said...

AMD is pretty much finished. Barcelona is just quad core K8 with more cache and 128bit SSE reverse engineered from Intel.

You expected more from AMD? Think again. Original AMD K6 and Athlon is designed by NexGen that AMD bought and Microsoft designed Opteron.

R600 is delayed again too. Nvidia will have a totally revamped G80 architecture ready to frag R600 twice over.

11:57 PM, February 24, 2007  
Blogger Azary Omega said...

Randy Allen said...
AMD is pretty much finished. Barcelona is just quad core K8 with more cache and 128bit SSE reverse engineered from Intel.


Let me prove you wrong.
1st: Its 128bit FP units. SIMD was 128bit in K8 and conroe, in revH SIMD is 128bit X 2.

You expected more from AMD?
2nd: When AMD moved from K7 to K8 they got 20-30% performance per MHz improvement. When AMD shall move to revH their chips will get 20-40% performance per MHz improvement comparing to K8. Intel is the one company that is incapable of good innovation. For example when intel moved from Pentium M to Core Duo they got 3-6% performance per MHz improvement. When they moved from Core Duo to Core 2 Duo they got 7-12% performance per MHz improvement.

Microsoft designed Opteron
3rd: Wrong! ..and funny by the way.

Nvidia will have a totally revamped G80 architecture ready to frag R600 twice over.
4th: Based on what? Your word? Last time I've checked it takes about one and a half year from the time Nvidia or ATI announces new upcoming architecture till it hits the market.

I would like to point out to everyone that mr. Randy Allen just made fun of himself and his incomplete, incompetent knowledge.

1:03 AM, February 25, 2007  
Blogger Ho Ho said...

azary omega
"human eye stops recognizing change of frames at 16fps"

Only in cinema with motion blurred frames! There is no motion blur in games.

azary omega
"1st: Its 128bit FP units. SIMD was 128bit in K8 and conroe, in revH SIMD is 128bit X 2."

Wrong, as I said in rubyworks forums. K8 has 64bit SIMD, Barcelona has 128bit. Please get your "facts" straight next time. Regular FP units in x87 have been 80bits from day one and they haven't widened them.

azary omega
"Last time I've checked it takes about one and a half year from the time Nvidia or ATI announces new upcoming architecture till it hits the market"

There is a differencew between revmapped and new architecture. I wouldn't be surprised to see 8900 on the market by summer.

2:25 AM, February 25, 2007  
Blogger Joshua said...

Don't we all know that you can only run Doon3 at lowest setting for this junk? Stop comparing that cheap stuff and compare perf., not shit.

10:50 AM, February 25, 2007  
Blogger Joshua said...

Oh, and turns out ATI is gonna launch the R600 with a ton of flavors: LInke: http://www.rubyworks.net/forumz/viewtopic.php?t=450

10:58 AM, February 25, 2007  
Blogger Roborat, Ph. D. said...

PENIX said...
Apple should adopt AMD processors. I want a Mac Mini, but I do not want an Intel processor.


Why would Apply destroy the Mac Mini brand with such an obsolete processor offering from AMD? How would you announce such a backward step to your investors and user base? Steve: “Today we introducing a much slower and more power hungry version of the Mac Mini!” – Not good. Everyone especially the Apple user base is aware how Core2Duo kicked the Athlon by 20 to 100% in performance and perf/watt. I’m sure Apple doesn’t want to be infected by the AMD disease (see ATI and Dell woes). Any PC brand who wishes to project technology leadership has drop AMD’s line up. I mean, when was the last time we saw AMD systems in top gaming competition, OC events and even LAN parties?

6:06 AM, February 26, 2007  
Blogger Bubba said...

"1st: Its 128bit FP units. SIMD was 128bit in K8 and conroe, in revH SIMD is 128bit X 2."

So they expanded FP, which has been fully depreciated in the 64 bit chips?

No wonder AMD is in such trouble, one depatment isn't even talking to the other.

12:56 PM, February 26, 2007  
Blogger Ho Ho said...

bubba
"So they expanded FP, which has been fully depreciated in the 64 bit chips?"

No, actually he just messed up execution unit widths and data path widths and bandwidth. What he said was correct but those numbers were about the bandwidth between L1 and SIMD registers

1:18 PM, February 26, 2007  
Blogger piled higher & deeper, ph.d said...

sharkie says: "This is unreal. For $129, get a dual core CPU that beats Pentium XE 965 and a motherboard capable of Doom 3. None of Intel's graphics is Doom capable."

Three points on Sharkie's latest:

First of all, spending $129 on a cheap crappy gaming machine is a waste of money. Even listing such a system is disingenuous. Any sort of modern console offers far greater entertainment value than a low end gaming PC.

Secondly, the Pentium XE 965 is not even relevant in today's processor marketplace. Maybe if you are AMD and have not shipped a truly new chip in 5 years, the Pentium XE is interesting. But the rest of the world has moved on.

Third, although not mentioned in the original post, all recent Intel integrated chipsets run Vista Aero just fine. Which is what really counts for cheaper PCs, not the ability to run DOOM3.

As AMD just released to the news recently, K10 will not be available in volume until 2H08. This is because the processor is undergoing redesign. The current processor has very poor yields and is a nightmare to produce. AMD will lose money on K10 until 2H08.

So the existing AMD strategy is simply "flood the market with cheap, old stuff". There will be some engineering sample K10 chips in a few months. Otherwise, AMD's stock would be even further in the toilet.

The net of it all is that AMD needs to get a new CEO. The existing CEO, Hector "I Love Fidel" Ruiz, is nothing more than a socialist relic left over from the cold war.

AMD needs to hire some Intel executives, basically an entire Intel management team, who know how to run a chip business. Either AMD does it or there will be a private equity buyout and the new owners will do it.

If there are no significant changes at AMD, the company will be bought out soon -- either private equity (Rothschild), private equity (Gates/Buffet), or by an existing company such as Nvidia, Microsoft, or IBM. Any of these things would be better than what we have today which is a company with some promise being ruined by a windbag socialist idiot at the helm.

4:07 PM, February 26, 2007  
Blogger lex said...

X2 3600+ + Doom3 MB for $129"

More like AMD is doomed

Rumor about of equity buy out as AMD's cash flow situation looks more and more dire. Selling CPus at loss while paying Charter at a profit. Mikey is back in Charge at Dell to fix the Rollins mess will only demand even lower prices or fluffing from Hector. Hector as we all know will blow anyone so expect AMDs losses to pile on even more.

Damm whats billions in debt for a second rate chipset and graphics company. WHy not give away the CPUs at a loss.

Lets go to IBM for silicon technology. IBM can't make a dime in DRAMs, drives or PCs.. damm they must be good at manufacturing.

Hey look at SILK, strain and their recent HighK annoucment. IBM knows silicon like Bo knew how to stay healthy.

AMD is finished.

5:52 PM, February 27, 2007  
Blogger mork said...

"Azary Omega said...
And i do. Do you actually know that most games ARE being played with FPS under 20? People simply don't buy video cards capable of providing better performance. At least try to do a research before you claim something."

Tell me. When or ever have you meet a gamer, wich happens to be the ppl that actually play these games, that has 20FPS or bellow? I think the answer to the question is zero to nobody.
95% of the ppl playing modern games use a standalone. Simply because you cant run the games in 1280x1024 resolution with AA/AF without it.
And its true that most games are played bellow 20FPS, but what you forgett to mention is this. Most games that normal ppl play are online-poker, suduko etc. Games that doesnt stress the ongraphic solution very hard.
For games like Battlefield 2 (swedish btw), Doom 3, Quake 4, Prey, HL2 etc you need a standalone gpu. 6600GT minimum to even have an enjoyble gameplay. Dont believe me? Find me one link to any gamer test site the last 3 years that tested a modern game with resolution higher then 640x480 with AA/AF and tell me if you can run any of these games with you precious onboard graphic solution.

"Azary Omega said...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate
QUOTE: "The first 3D first-person adventure game for a personal computer, 3D Monster Maze, had a frame rate of approximately 6 fps, and was still a success, being playable and addictive. In modern action-oriented games where players must visually track animated objects and react quickly, frame rates of approximately 25 to 30 fps are considered minimally acceptable, though this can vary significantly from game to game."

My claim was that 21fps is acceptable for playing while you claim that 60 or even as much as 100 is needed. I think you mistook FPS rate for a flicker fusion threshold. Later is dependant on your monitor and is NOT influenced by FPS in some game."

First of all. 3D Monster Maze was made for Sinclair using Basic. It has no colours, no dynamic light etc, it was not intended for fast gaming like modern fps games. Same goes for newer games like Civ4.

And to quote your own answer "25 to 30 fps are considered minimally acceptable". That goes for all FPS games created since 2003. The only thing that can make you play games with lower fps is lowering the resolution back to the stone age 640x480 and removing all AA. But with the added cost of losing all gaming experience that modern games give.

"Azary Omega said...
You said "Try doing some reading before you open you mouth", well, makes you that next time YOU do actually read something. I rest my case."

The only thing you proved is that you didnt read the review at pcstats, since you didnt answer their litte observation..

"In the final benchmark of the day, playing Doom 3 with the onboard videocard is not really possible. With a standalone graphics card there is no difference between the Geforce 6150 and nForce 4 systems."

And btw: 16FPS is only the limit for the eye in cinema with motion blur, PAL for instance uses 24fps and NTSC uses 25fps.
Games like modern fps doesnt have motion blur at all. Wich allows you to play at framrates 100fps.

5:15 AM, February 28, 2007  
Blogger Poke said...

Intel will frag AMD's Barcelona with 45nm Penryn in Q2'07 and finish them off in Q2'08 with CSI and Nehalem.

7:36 AM, February 28, 2007  

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