From now on, I will use K10 to refer the architecture formerly known as K8L
K10 will frag Intel for three years minimum. K10 is a whole new chip. Tom Yager is very excited, and George Ou is confused. Intel to have 45nm in 1Q08? AMD will have 45nm in 2Q08 -- but Intel will BK by then any way, as 65nm K10 will frag Intel's 45nm by at least 20%.
I heard that Patty started working on his resume after seeing this video.
Now, it's official. AMD's press release affirmed that K10 will frag Clovertown by 40%. Some Intelers may say AMD will get sued by shareholders if the performance lead comes out at 39%, but I am quite sure the average lead will be over 50%. AMD is always conservative. Unlike Intelers, who claimed 40% lead, but only come out at 10%.
posted by Sharikou, Ph. D. @ 2/06/2007 12:39:00 PM
74 Comments:
Just when the Intel fanboys were starting to get excited about being back in the game, K10 comes along and crushes Intel again. This will be the final blow. I, for one, say good riddance. Intel held back the industry for too long.
Their brand new Core2 is a technological flop. Intel's only hope is to come out with a new and improved core to compete with K10.
It is so very obvious that AMD is desperate. These nomenclature changes are management's way of making things appear better than they are.
K10 used to be a new architecture chip, but was designed and redesigned a number of times and never panned out.
Now K8L, or KL8/K-Late as many call it, is the new K10.
Thus continues AMD's pathetic shell game. What really happened is a 2-3 year slip in AMD chip design.
As I previously stated, the new quad-core Opterons are not going out in volume until mid-2008. There will be a few engineering chips put out this year and that's it. The chip itself is being reworked to handle a number of design deficiencies. This reworked K8L will not be available until mid-2008.
Almost all the production dates for AMD quad core are TBD. This can only be seen as a complete and total company failure.
AMD shareholders need to call for the immediate resignation of all AMD management and have the interim CEO focus on selling the company, maybe to Nvidia, IBM, or even Microsoft.
As the original Opteron design came from Microsoft, perhaps being bought by Microsoft would make the most sense. Buy owning its own vertical PC manufacture, Microsoft could finally revive the image of the PC market instead of relying on boring, design-challenged companies like Dell.
Well isn't it nice notw that random people can't post anymore I guess the doctor really is learning something. Fow all the people that complain about the poor comments on this blog, just look at the poor POSTS on this blog. Even a few months ago they had alot more meaning and were not so blindly fanboy like. Oh well does make for an interesting read.
101 wrote
"As the original Opteron design came from Microsoft, perhaps being bought by Microsoft would make the most sense."
WTF are you smoking?
Since when MS started designing processors?
101 wrote:
"AMD shareholders need to call for the immediate resignation of all AMD management and have the interim CEO focus on selling the company, maybe to Nvidia, IBM, or even Microsoft."
Selling AMD to Nvidia?????
Ahhh please tell us you are not that stupid.
anonymous agent #101 said...
It is so very obvious that AMD is desperate. These nomenclature changes are management's way of making things appear better than they are.
A rose by any other name...
It doesn't matter what it is called. It's going to destroy Conroe... or Core2, or whatever they're calling the P4 these days.
not penix said...
Fow all the people that complain about the poor comments on this blog, just look at the poor POSTS on this blog.
Although his IQ is very low, and it shows, I must concur on this issue.
Sharikou, your high intelligence does not show when you simply post a link to someone else's commentary. As the only reliable source of unbiased industry news, it is your duty to place more effort in your analysis and commentary.
I don't agree with Core2 being a technological flop, certainly it is better performing and more cost efficient than what Intel had before.
It looks like Penryn is going to be delayed to 2008 now so that is to AMD's advantage for K10 as long as it performs well. I guess if it does perform well than the only option Intel have is price reductions. Those would be good for the consumer ( either buying AMD or Intel ) but not mavellous for the two companies financials.
Interesting.
When AMD sais their CPUs are better than competitions they must be true, even without any real benchmarks. When Intel sais theirs are better and provide benchmark results they surely must be lying.
"Anonymous Agent #101" you must be very stupid or your IQ is lower than 20... K10 is so advanced that even Intel's next architecture can't even match it! You must be blind by Intel's so called architecture... Intel is BIG, but is like a ballon - empty inside, colorful and big outside. You need a brain dude.
Too bad though that Sharikou can't post as anonymous anymore.
But one has to admire the quick transition of AMD from K8L to K10 literally overnight. I'm amazed how clever they are in making sure that K8L and K10 are socket compatible. If AMD can continue to execute like this, Intel has no chance in outdoing AMD.
Why you don't believe that AMDs K10 will crush Intel by 30-40%?
Give me 5 good reasons!
Just sit back and think.
Amd is going to destroy Intel with their new box system with new chipset R600 and new Barcelona cpu.
Maybe Randy Allen was lieing touching his nose on AMD L3 cache and the speed of Intel FSB, but all the other things seems true.
Intel is, and will be in deep shit.
How is it possible for K10 to frag intel for 3 years minimum when intel is going to Burger King in less than a year and a half?
You are still on for 2Q '08 right?
Bout time he seperated the wheat from the chaff.
AMD Press Release
How is this definitive?
Don't they have working processors that they could be a little more specific?
And since the articles title is about performance-per-watt, shouldn't these 40% claims be taken in that regard?
gr8mikey said...
How is it possible for K10 to frag intel for 3 years minimum when intel is going to Burger King in less than a year and a half?
Bankruptcy does not mean the immediate end of a company. It is possible for a company to come out of bankruptcy, just unlikely.
I was amazed to hear nvidia chip design engineer give the technology edge to AMD over Intel in an interview with Leo Laporte on TWiT (This Week in Tech) episode 80 pod cast. The conversation was about Fusion & Multi-core CPU’s.
Yes, AMD should sell themselves to Nvidia while they still have time. Nvidia is a bigger company worth more.
K8L will be stumbled out and be met by Penryn which will easily match the performance AMD offers. Then Intel will be ready with the Nehalem superfrags in Q2'08 to finish AMD off. AMD will be BK by Q4'08.
The graphics side is looking equally bleak for AMD. They'll paper launch R600 in a month and then be met by the revised G81 that will be more than enough to frag R600.
:) You are just to small to comprehend.
Now is to late for Nvidia to buy AMD, if they had even chance before, because they worth equally 7 months ago (about 11 billion).
Today AMD worth $20 billion, and will worth more and more.
'Giant' you are talking about 'revised G81', are you kidding me?
They don't even have Vista drivers yet.
K10 and R600 will be destroying everything on their way.
Workers in AMD just got awaken. From now on, they are in Fifth gear.
Dudes this is fate for AMD...
Choose a stupid naming convention like K# and what do you get?
Accept the fact that the Barcelona is going to be a dog and K9 is very appropriate.
It is sandwiched between INTELs Tick Tock. Figure it has 3-6 months of leadership. Penrym on 45nm will match it then Nehalem on 45nm will crush it like Opetron got crushed by Core2.
Face it INTEL can't be beat. They are hungry, they got the technology, they got off their a$$ and are working hard again.
Good hungry engineers with a big bank account, big factories and better silicon technology will always beat hungry engineers with no bank account and crappy silicon technology.
DOn't get fooled by what happened at 90nm when you had hungry engineers with great silcion technology forced in a direction off the cliff by bad management. INTEL has corrected its ways and they are steam rolling AMD.
By the way. Did anyone come across the interview with Patrick Patla, Director, AMD Server Workstation Division on Hexus website.
He seems to be pretty confident about the curent/future position of AMD.
http://www.hexus.tv/show.php?show=28
AMD is worth a pathetic 8.5bn. By contrast Nvidia is worth 12.5bn. If any acquiring was going to happen it would be Nvidia acquiring AMD.
FWIW, Intel is worth over $120bn.
R600 is still vaporware and when launched will be a good old paper launch. Nvidia has the goods now. It only takes one G80 GPU to crush X1950 Crossfire. G80 SLI is unstoppable.
Intel has a clear lead on all fronts now; Mobile, Desktop and Server. Penryn is coming this year. Nehalem is coming next year. This will be enough to crush AMD once and for all.
I predict Intel and Nvidia will peck at what's left of AMD. Nvidia will take the graphics portion, Intel the CPU portion.
I'm sure that AMD have been posting high TDP values for the new core (68W, 95W, 125W) on 65nm.
And for the K8 at 65nm we have a top of 65W and also 25W, 35W and 45W parts.
That could mean that in a performance per watt comparison; AMD new core would be equal to Intel in power consuming and has a performance lead of 40%.
So in performance/watt comparison would total 40% better?
Well Intel with Conroe improved performance why AMD shouldn’t?
Sharikou Intel said that Conroe provides 40% more performance at 40% less power compared to the Pentium D.
Not 40% faster over K8.
Slide
Guys, please notice that the change from K8L to K10 was not done by AMD, but by our Ph.D himself.
In all the press and all AMD documents, the chip is still K8L
Cheers
As the original Opteron design came from Microsoft, perhaps being bought by Microsoft would make the most sense. Buy owning its own vertical PC manufacture, Microsoft could finally revive the image of the PC market instead of relying on boring, design-challenged companies like Dell.
Wow, you're kidding right? You really think MS designed the Opteron?
Of course Microsoft designed the Opteron. AMD lacks the engineering skills necessary to design a CPU.
Giant said...
The graphics side is looking equally bleak for AMD. They'll paper launch R600 in a month and then be met by the revised G81 that will be more than enough to frag R600.
In a war between AMD/ATI and Intel/nVidia, there really is no contest. A/A is going to mop the floor with I/n, and the fault will be on Intel's shoulders. Conroe has turned out to be nothing but a new P4 and their entire platform is heavily flawed from the ground up. Intel is going to get hit with some crushing bottlenecks that AMD has prepared for from the very beginning. It doesn't matter how good nVidia's tech is. It is impossible for them to win when coupled with Intel.
Sharikou
Thanks for the changes. It is much easier without word verification and without anonymous posting it is much easier to see who has anything worthwhile to read.
-------
Nomenclature is complicated at this point. The K8L name came from Charlie:
"November 3, 2005
THE K10 LOOKS TO BE dead, or at least really really delayed.
In this game, cores age about as well as mayonnaise in the sun, so while it could be a simple year or two delay, we think it is much more likely that the core is history.
Like the horrendously complex eight issue K9 before it, I would bet good money that it will slip beneath the waves without a hiccup.
Either way, if you were expecting the K10 in 2007, don't, and maybe not in 2008 either. To make up for it, there is a new chip called K8L to slot in the middle, but little is known about that, as yet.
What we do know is that it will start out at four cores, and quite possibly will move to eight in short order.
Either way, this is not good news for AMD. It needed something big to counter the second generation Merom cores, and K10 was it. Lets hope K8L is up to the task."
It was suggested that the name K8L came from K8.50 with L as roman numeral for 50. This was supposedly because K8L was only an upgrade of K8 since K9 and K10 were canceled.
However, after seeing the interview where Barcelona was described it is clear to me that the idea of a half step is incorrect. K8 was fully resurveyed to make Barcelona in the same way that K7 was resurveyed to make K8. Thereore, Barcelona is a new generation. Someone connected with AMD suggested that K9 was being used however it is usually suggested that K9 is perjorative hence skipping to K10.
Intel has done this several times. Intel stopped using the 80x86 designation when it lost the copywrite lawsuit against AMD and Cyrix. So it switched to trademarked name Pentium obviously from Greek for 5. However then it ran into a wall because the next would have been Sexium for 6. So it went to Pentium II and III and then ran into another wall because Pentium IV might sound like it was hospitalized. So, switch to Pentium 4. Intel hit another wall though with Prescott which should have been Pentium 5 but apparently Intel wanted to avoid a 55 label; perhaps they had visions of AMD commercials with Sammy Hagar singing, "I can't drive . . . fiftyfiiive!" So they called it Pentium 4D. Unfortunately, Intel had already used 4E so the next would have been 4F. However, this hit a wall again because section 4-F was well known with the draft to be someone who was "not qualified for service in the Armed Forces under the established physical, mental, or moral standards." I guess Intel decided that Pentium 4G wouldn't be that impressive so, now, the Pentium name is being dropped and Core 2 Duo doesn't really have a numeric designation unless the next in series is Core 3 Duo.
Given this situation it is not clear whether or not AMD was to continue with the simple Kx designation they've used since K5. After avoiding K-9 they might decide that a K-12 system could be viewed as only for kids. At this point we have no idea what AMD's official name is, obviously it won't be called Barcelona.
In terms of the quality of processors I can't believe how much ridiculous hyberbole is being thrown around.
Core 2 Duo is a good architecture currently up to 2-way.
Barcelona will also be a good architecture.
I would expect the performance of C2D and Barcelona to be almost identical in Q3 07. Frankly, I don't see any real advantage for either side.
True, AMD did say, "“Barcelona.” These processors are expected to feature substantial core enhancements in mid-2007 and to offer a 40-percent performance advantage over the competition’s quad-core offerings, all based on the same infrastructure and thermal envelopes customers depend on today."
However, this is not benchmark or computation performance. What AMD is actually saying is that Barcelona will tie Clovertown in cpu performance but that the system will draw about 29% less power. This is due to Clovertown's having to have a power hungry dual or quad FSB chipset and possibly due to FBDIMM. This is important to customers who have very large server arrays but it isn't really a factor for a single server or on the desktop.
True, AMD did say, "“Barcelona.” These processors are expected to feature substantial core enhancements in mid-2007 and to offer a 40-percent performance advantage over the competition’s quad-core offerings, all based on the same infrastructure and thermal envelopes customers depend on today."
However, this is not benchmark or computation performance. What AMD is actually saying is that Barcelona will tie Clovertown in cpu performance but that the system will draw about 29% less power.
I am surprised that you read the PR that way. The language in the PR is clear:
1) K10 will be 40% faster than Clovertown
2) K10 will be at the same thermals as Rev F.
:) Yes, I'm all excited because of 3 months remaining of viewing first K10 benchmark.
About 20 billion I was just expressing scenically.
Imagine Deuterium and Tritium (isotopes of hydrogen) they are just elements, but combine together, fusioned, become energy, fusion power.
That's what I am talking about.
K10*R600=Pure multimedia power
LoL
"Of course Microsoft designed the Opteron. AMD lacks the engineering skills necessary to design a CPU."
Remember, AMD bought NexGen which is the source of the Athlon. Historically, AMD has never been very strong in CPU design and has bought/borrowed most of their IP.
The current game plan on Opteron is based on information from Microsoft. Information that Microsoft got from an outside source.
For example, this is why Opteron is very Transputer-like. It is not by accident.
The current emphasis on FP performance is all according to plan.
There are a number of areas where AMD has not executed well, of course. This includes external HyperTransport. AMD's current implementation is far too clunky.
AMD is of course missing on some later innovations that Microsoft was not able to steal for them. So the road is hard for AMD. Without Microsoft spoon feeding them, AMD has to figure things out the hard way. This is why all AMD's chips are late.
ATI is preparing something really, really special.
AMD plans an absolute GPGPU monster, FireStream/Stream Processor.
Professional ATI R600 GPGPU with 2 to 4GB of memory.
That's what I'm talking about.
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37529
Given this situation it is not clear whether or not AMD was to continue with the simple Kx designation they've used since K5. After avoiding K-9 they might decide that a K-12 system could be viewed as only for kids. At this point we have no idea what AMD's official name is, obviously it won't be called Barcelona.
It will be called Opteron. I thought they would go with 14xx,24xx,84xx, but it seems like they are going 1260,1262,1264,1268,1270 if the latest news is accurate.
I'm curious if they will use X4. It has been said that PR rating is dead and they BETTER not have overlapping names again.
Scientia said...
After avoiding K-9 they might decide that a K-12 system could be viewed as only for kids.
I think that AMD made a mistake in skipping K-9. They should have adopted it, then changed their mascot to a Siberian wolf dog named Barcelona. Their first ad should feature Barcelona ripping the shit out of an Intel fab worker wearing a clean suit.
It's a good thing AMD chips are the best on the market, because their PR department is lousy.
Remember, AMD bought NexGen which is the source of the Athlon. Historically, AMD has never been very strong in CPU design and has bought/borrowed most of their IP.
The current game plan on Opteron is based on information from Microsoft. Information that Microsoft got from an outside source.
For example, this is why Opteron is very Transputer-like. It is not by accident.
The current emphasis on FP performance is all according to plan.
There are a number of areas where AMD has not executed well, of course. This includes external HyperTransport. AMD's current implementation is far too clunky.
AMD is of course missing on some later innovations that Microsoft was not able to steal for them. So the road is hard for AMD. Without Microsoft spoon feeding them, AMD has to figure things out the hard way. This is why all AMD's chips are late.
So when they reverse engineered the 386 ad made it faster what did that mean?
Do you think it's simple to take Opteron and make it dual core?
Even Apple was using HyperTransport. Server manufs use HT to connect to Infiniband.
HT3 wll be more than twice as fast and allow 32Way operation.
I guess they also stole or were given Turon and Turion X2 (these are NOT Athlon).
AMD never changed the nomencalture as they called it the "new arch."
Others came up with K8L. Use the codename Barcelona which did come from AMD. I still haven't heard K10 from anyone at AMD.
Only The Inq.
"The current game plan on Opteron is based on information from Microsoft. Information that Microsoft got from an outside source."
You are materially wrong. The Opteron roadmap has always been targeted to high-end servers. My belief is that it is affected by SUN and the IT/datacenter market much more than by Microsoft.
While AMD marketed Athlon64 with Microsoft on its side, Opteron has always been focused on the server market. For example, AMD linked AthlonXP with WindowsXP and Athlon64/ATi with Windows Vista, but it does say so regarding Opteron and Windows Server 2003. Yet everyone knows Athlons are derivatives of Opterons.
Exploding Intel laptop burns down house
This lives of this family have been ruined. All their cherished possessions are now destroyed and they are homeless.
Buying an Intel laptop is not only stupid, it's dangerous and irresponsible. A recall should be issued on all Intel based laptops ever created.
Dell did a recall. It their own fault they didn't replace the faulty battery
If the K8L is the new K10, I will be extreamly disappointed with AMD, in terms of projected figures and performance.
But I think the K8L is the K8L. Not the K10 that some people have said. How can it be? It is just an improvement over the K8 which is like 4/5 years old and at the time it was already stated that the K8 had flaws in its design that a few tweak here and there will make it better, therefore the K8L. Saying the K9 is dual core processor or whatever was said is just dumb. The K8 was already designed to have dual-core implemented, thats why the transition was very easy and very scalable.
Also saying that K9 is the dual core is just stupid. You are saying the performance increase from the K8 single core and the K9 dual core is less than double with a completely architecture change and another core??? That would be the worse thing to ever happen to AMD... lol.
K9/K10 (Depending if the K8L is the K9 which will probably turn out to be, but I will call it Barcelona) will come out in say 2011, when 32nm comes out. That is my prediction.
Barcelona will at least be 40% better than clovertown (give or take either way), but over the new 45nm of intel, I think intel might steal that away until AMD get their 45nm out, which to be honest will not happen until 2009. Come on, how can you say AMD can get it out in 2008? They have to convert so many factories over from 65nm to 45nm and in some cases from 90-45nm. Do you think that can be done in such a small time scale???
Anyway.. I love this site. This guy is such a fan boy it is just funny to read. But I like it.. enjoyable reading...
As said before AMD has better architecture. Intel Clovertown is a disappointment (Intel anything currently >2 core doesn't scale). End of story.
http://forums.2cpu.com/showpost.php?p=680134&postcount=708
"PENIX said...
Exploding Intel laptop burns down house
This lives of this family have been ruined. All their cherished possessions are now destroyed and they are homeless.
Buying an Intel laptop is not only stupid, it's dangerous and irresponsible. A recall should be issued on all Intel based laptops ever created."
Strange. You lunitics have changed your story here completly since I last was here. First you claimed it was laptops with Core Duo, but since it was showned to be a battery issue from Sony,that wasnt much fun to spread FUD about.
Who here hasnt forgott our beloved PhD claim of "dual cores cause dual explotion" theory.
And btw get reading glasses. The article perfectly states at the end
"It was determined that the laptop, battery, or cord malfunctioned
around 15 minutes after I left for work, and quickly spread through
the living room, the nearby dining room, and then up a stairwell into
the bedrooms. Virtually the entire house suffered extensive fire,
smoke, or water damage."
So yet again its a battery issue. Stop spreading FUD you lamer. No wonder you americans are the laughting stoke of the world
/Mork
Opteron 2.0GHz 40% faster than Woodcrest 2.66GHz on single-threaded performance for bioinformatics sequence comparison.
Kudos to AMD as it shows superior architecture is king.
http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=221676&cid=17960760
Opteron 2.0GHz 40% faster than Woodcrest 2.66GHz on single-threaded performance for bioinformatics sequence comparison.
It might be shocking..but it is true that compiler and the Core 2 architecture itself is designed specifically to get good scores with the benchmarks...It is as if ...the core designer's starting point for the design and optimisation is the benchmark itself..and not as an after thought. I would stay away from buying any Intel CPUs...
Another Boise State fan I see said "Anyway.. I love this site. This guy is such a fan boy it is just funny to read"
Get real boys.. don't let one victory get to your head. INTEL is focused and lets see what they have going for them? 3 45nm factories on tap, 3 65nm factories running, 5 130nm factories. The ability to produce 80-85% of the anticipated demand for CPUs, chipsets and graphics. What does AMD have? 1 90nm factory and 1 65nm ramping factory capable of producing 25% of the market. Do the math, the simple profits from AMD's 25% can't even fund the R&D and capital they need to invest in new factories. let along the design, masks, and other infractructures.
Like Boise State, they caught the big buy sleeping, he's awake.
It isn't too relevant that Barcelona is faster, it shoudl be. Damm its been what 6 years in the making, on 65nm it better be faster then COre2 that was developed and released last year. If it aint faster by 30% it is a dud, if it is 40% faster that is fully expected. But sorry it won't be good enough. Penrym on 45nm will equal it worst case, and most likely beat it due to superior performance of INTEL 45nm HighK metal gate. Then you got Nehalem coming in 2008. AMD simpley doesn't have enough resources to fund the necessary silicon nor design to compete.
Don't get fooled.. unlike football poor AMD can't just retreat back to the WAC and compete and make money. They got to compete in the real world and they will suck red and limp along..
Poor AMD.. no matter what you can't change the economics of the business. AMD isn't big enough to compete. You can out innovate INTEL for a generation but the big guy will always catch one then beat you. Just like MS, can't be beat. Until the x86 business is irrelevant they can't be beat.
Hey Shakira,
Looks like Larrabee is a monster. How is AMD going to cope with that?
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37548
Also, looks like Intel is pulling in 45 nm. So much so for k-late lead.
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37562
The simple fact is, Intel is too big, and now it has stopped fooling around. It means business!
First of all Penix, m0rk has right. Stop spreading wrong information about "Core 2 Duo", because they are not the victim of exploading baterryes.
If you are an AMD fun, that doesn't mean to spread wrong information. That is bad for AMD, to have such crapy things against Intel, and to be satisfied with AMD progress and publicity.
And now """"""lex""""""!!!
You have just a small dick or what???
What is your problem???
We don't need a consciousness guy. Intel is big, yeeees!!!.
We are fighting for the little factory that is trying to survive with whale.
Ravishing lex - fuck you
LoL,
lex, fuck you ones again
Wow AMD got K9 on 65nm
Here comes Penrym 6months early on 45nm. 10x less leakage and 30% faster then 65nm. Or with technology shrink either 30-40% faster at same power or probably 20-30% power reduction at same performance..
poor AMD, plummetting margins, no 45nm and 65nm cross over near end of year..
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37562
read and weep boise state fans
Well, I'd rather have some real numbers from an independent third party review site on production hardware before I make my judgement.
Anything else is just hearsay and poor journalism.
Well I would like to see the numbers from benchmarks from an independent third party review site on real production hardware before making any judgements.
Anything else is just hearsay, poort journalism and ridiculous "fanboyism".
ho ho said...
Dell did a recall. It their own fault they didn't replace the faulty battery
Yes, Dell issued a recall, but there is not enough follow through. And Dell is not the only party affected. As the exact reasons some Intel laptops explode is not known, all should be recalled and replaced with AMD hardware, or Intel hardware which is proven not to explode. This recall should not be optional. As these devices are essentially bombs, they must be treated appropriately. Each and every Intel laptop ever produced must be located and replaced.
m0rk said...
So yet again its a battery issue. Stop spreading FUD you lamer. No wonder you americans are the laughting stoke of the world
Based on what they TOLD you, it's a battery issue. I cannot verify this claim, nor can you. I do not make any claims other than this:
Not one single AMD laptop has exploded.
I do not see this as a coincidence. I believe that all non-AMD laptops ever made should be recalled and replaced with modern AMD laptops at the cost of the manufacturers.
lex said...
Poor AMD.. no matter what you can't change the economics of the business. AMD isn't big enough to compete. You can out innovate INTEL for a generation but the big guy will always catch one then beat you. Just like MS, can't be beat. Until the x86 business is irrelevant they can't be beat.
I disagree. I think that this is a market where the 'little guy' can dominate. MS has a different situation. They control the OS that is required for everything to run. But the hardware is transparent. It doesn't matter if you have Intel or AMD hardware, Windows will still run.
It's like putting gas in your car. You can put in any of the major brands, and they will all run. But if one brand of gas made your car perform 40% better (AMD), you will choose to buy that gas.
Microsoft is afraid of linux and has totally lost the server market and is beginning to lose the desktop market.
Intel is afraid of AMD and loses more market share every quarter to AMD.
Intel is a shrinking company, every quarter they lay off more workers and close more plants.
AMD is a growing company which adds workers and production plants.
Intel has antique platforms pushing supercharged pentium 3s(c2d).
AMD has modern platforms and state of the art chips.
The K10 will probably BK Intel.
Show me a laptop running an AMD cpu that is 40% faster than an intel notebook based on Core duo or Core 2 Duo.....
Not going to find one. AMD makes good mobile cpu's but they arn't quite up to par with intel's mobile offering.
someone with a "x" instead of an "s" clearly has no head at the end of his "x"
made a brilliant analogy that a CPU is like gas in a car. And the little guy AMD is like gas. If it is as good or better for the same price then people will line up and buy it. Sorry AMD gas today is like ARCO, cheaper and crappier, people who care about quality by something else, people too stupid to know get seduced by the marketing and cheap price.
But the gass analogy is good. Like ARCO AMD is too small to keep up with the big boys and invest in the big R&D necessary to make the required money. Like ARCO they will fall further and further behind unless they stumble on some luck and the big guy continues to screw up. To depend on the competior to screw up for your survival is a very bad sitatuion.
Your analogy is right on, the prospects for AMD are horrible! Thanks for confirming!
Not Penix said...
Not going to find one. AMD makes good mobile cpu's but they arn't quite up to par with intel's mobile offering.
AMD mobile chips are quite up to par with Intel's offering. Even if they were only half the speed, I would still take one over Intel. I would never use one of those Israeli ticking time bombs. Exploding Intel laptops are unsafe at any speed.
penix
"Not one single AMD laptop has exploded."
You could rewordi it to "only laptops with Sony's faulty battery have exploded" and it would be even more true since I haven't heard any other laptop exploding that didn't use those batteries. That wording would reduce the affected number of laptops to reasnoable amount. Don't you agree?
penix
"believe that all non-AMD laptops ever made should be recalled and replaced with modern AMD laptops at the cost of the manufacturers"
Manufacturer of what? CPU, batterie or the one who put the parts together?
penix
"MS has a different situation. They control the OS that is required for everything to run"
Actually MS has the marketshare only because it already has the dominant marketshare.
Windows is not by far the easiest and most powerful OS out there but you are simply forced to use it when you don't want to mess with a few little things or you want to use some specific programs. Though if you don't play much games and don't need some proffessional software you could swithc to OSX/Linux/*BSD and do everything you ever need without much problems. Those OS'es even have much better HW support than Vista and they also have decent 64bit software, though I still can't understand why would anyone want 64bit it on their home computer.
oneexpert
"Intel is a shrinking company, every quarter they lay off more workers and close more plants."
Really? What plant did they close last and when will they close their next one?
"PENIX said...
AMD mobile chips are quite up to par with Intel's offering. Even if they were only half the speed, I would still take one over Intel. I would never use one of those Israeli ticking time bombs. Exploding Intel laptops are unsafe
at any speed."
Fud, fud, fud.... typical Sharikou follower. Big words no benchies no nothing....
Tell me after reading this on...
http://xtreview.com/review142.htm
Btw: C2D is about 5-7% fast than original CD. Ifll your little pathetic X2 cant even beat the older one, what in hell makes you think it could beat C2D ????
m0rk said...
Fud, fud, fud.... typical Sharikou follower. Big words no benchies no nothing....
Tell me after reading this on...
http://xtreview.com/review142.htm
Your benchmark is putting a Turion 1.6GHz against a Core Duo 2.0GHz, and the Turion still comes out on top in some categories. I think you just proved my point for me, idiot.
ho ho said...
penix
"Not one single AMD laptop has exploded."
You could rewordi it to "only laptops with Sony's faulty battery have exploded" and it would be even more true since I haven't heard any other laptop exploding that didn't use those batteries. That wording would reduce the affected number of laptops to reasnoable amount. Don't you agree?
I understand your point. All Intel based laptops should be recalled and replaced with AMD laptops that do not use Sony batteries.
ho ho said...
penix
"believe that all non-AMD laptops ever made should be recalled and replaced with modern AMD laptops at the cost of the manufacturers"
Manufacturer of what? CPU, batterie or the one who put the parts together?
Each component should be sent back to whom ever produced it. I didn't say it would be easy, I just said it should be done.
ho ho said...
penix
"MS has a different situation. They control the OS that is required for everything to run"
Actually MS has the marketshare only because it already has the dominant marketshare.
Then we are in agreement. They control the OS that is required for everything to run.
penix
"All Intel based laptops should be recalled and replaced with AMD laptops that do not use Sony batteries"
What does the CPU have to do with any of it?
penix
"Each component should be sent back to whom ever produced it"
On whose cost E.g, would the LCD maker pay for the recall of the machines when Sony batteries were the cause?
penix
"They control the OS that is required for everything to run"
We think similarly but not 100% the same. As I said you can do most of the tasks on Linux but people don't use it as much since their neigbour doesn't use it. Not because they wouldn't be able to exchange data but because perhaps that neighbour was the one who tought them about computers and used Windows to do it. People learn something and it is really difficult to relearn to use something else if they are not open minded towards new things. Most people aren't.
I know this from personal experience. I taught my parents to use Linux and they were happy, especially since it had vastly superior localizatoin compared to XP. They can do everything the ever need with that. When they have to use windows machines for some reason they are quite helpless and it takes a lot more time and effort to do the things they do. Its all about what you are used to.
Btw, I have similar problems as my parents. I was a Windows-only user for about 8 years until about three years ago I tried Linux for the first time in my life. Half a year later I removed Windows from my PC and now I use Linux exclusevly, mainly because of much increased productivity and ease of use. Also I am one of the two people in a ~40 people company who uses Linux as their primary desktop system. The other one uses a windows box too but I can do just fine with only Linux. Everyone else use Windows and we all get by just fine. Our company develops enterprise level web applications and I'm one of the programmers there.
"PENIX said...Your benchmark is putting a Turion 1.6GHz against a Core Duo 2.0GHz, and the Turion still comes out on top in some categories. I think you just proved my point for me, idiot."
WoW... you found one entire application that Turion actually works best on. This is a very typical Sharikou bloggspot moment. I actually think you and the doctor are brothers/sisters, you both like to point out AMDs good side, but totally ignores its faults.
But you know what they say "ignorance, you got to love it".
Btw: Show me a test from any site on the net (pick anyone) where we can see that Turion X2 comes out a winner in more then 30% of the benchmarks. Something tells me you wont find it :p
Btw Sharikou. Why did you sensor my technical entry on causes of battery fires? Did the truth hurt that much?
Penix... btw.. some literature for you:
http://xtreview.com/review81.htm
http://www.presence-pc.com/tests/Duel-Turion-64-X2-Core-Duo-et-ultraportables-MSI-462/11/
http://www.ferra.ru/online/mobilis/26605/page-4/
http://www.matbe.com/articles/lire/299/amd-turion-64-x2-socket-s1-et-ddr2/
Now! After reading these reviews, how many benchmarks did AMD win????
Btw: If you dont have the brain power to read french or russian ill be more then happy to help you out. Else there is babelfish
happy happy happy day...
Ho Ho said...
What does the CPU have to do with any of it?
I'm not claiming the CPU is or is not part of the reason. Not a single AMD based laptop has exploded, and I believe this is no coincidence. I'm am not saying this is the CPU, because the CPU is not the only component proprietary to a cpu platform. What I am saying is that there is connection to the platform, which may or may not be the fault of Intel, and this is not a risk that should be taken.
Ho Ho said...
On whose cost E.g, would the LCD maker pay for the recall of the machines when Sony batteries were the cause?
We were TOLD that the batteries were the cause. We to not KNOW that it was the cause. I am not so callus to make guesses when lives are at stake. I say recall everything. In the case of the LCD, yes, the LCD would be returned to the manufacturer.
Ho Ho said...
penix
"They control the OS that is required for everything to run"
We think similarly but not 100% the same... Blah blah blah. Ramble ramble ramble.
Microsoft controls Windows and Windows is the OS that is running on 90%+ computers today. Do not ramble on a tangent. Do you agree with this statement, yes or no?
m0rk said...
Penix... btw.. some literature for you:
http://xtreview.com/review81.htm
http://www.presence-pc.com/tests/Duel-Turion-64-X2-Core-Duo-et-ultraportables-MSI-462/11/
http://www.ferra.ru/online/mobilis/26605/page-4/
http://www.matbe.com/articles/lire/299/amd-turion-64-x2-socket-s1-et-ddr2/
Now! After reading these reviews, how many benchmarks did AMD win????
http://xtreview.com/review81.htm
Their test systems contain way too many differences for an accurate benchmark. They do not even have the same amount of ram, for crying out loud! They make no mention if their benchmarks are single-threaded or multi-threaded. This has huge impact on how the benchmark can be evaluated. This review is clearly very amateur and cannot be taken seriously.
http://www.presence-pc.com/tests/Duel-Turion-64-X2-Core-Duo-et-ultraportables-MSI-462/11/
Again, you have provided me with a benchmark that is clearly in my favor. This one even more so that your last post. This review put two very similar machines up agaist each other, both with nearly equal clock speed. The results clearly show AMD on top in multiple categories. The only case where Intel came out far ahead was in a SYNTHETIC benchmark. At the end of the review they even stated that they believed the AMD had room for MORE optimization and that the laptop costs less than the Intel. Did you even read this review before you presented it?
http://www.ferra.ru/online/mobilis/26605/page-4/
These reviewers have also chosen to use completely different hardware in their comparisson. This is probably why some of the Intel setups at equal clockspeed LOSE to the AMD setup in several categories, sometimes by extremely significant margins. Although this review is in my favor, it is so poor in quality that I cannot even consider it. I must assume you did not even take the time to read the very article you presented.
http://www.matbe.com/articles/lire/299/amd-turion-64-x2-socket-s1-et-ddr2/
I see you tried to save the best for last. While this article is in Intel's favor, it clearly shows AMD beating Intel, again, in several categories. In gameplay the results are slanted towards Intel, even though they are run at abnormally low resolution making the benchmark unrealistic. This slant in gameplay says to me that there may have been a problem with the chipset driver at the time of the benchmark, which was conducted 9 months ago. If this test were redone today, with updated drivers and realistic resolutions, the results would undoubtedly be different. There is only one test where Intel wins without question, SuperPi. Congratulations, your exploding Core Duo can calculate Pi faster. If you are the type of person who does nothing but calculate Pi all day long, this might be worth the extra cost and explosion risks.
After taking the time to evaluate 5 of reviews that YOU PROVIDED to me, there is no doubt that you are a complete and utter imbecile. This exercise has been a complete waste of time in all but one aspect. It has proven to me, and anyone else who cares to review this, that you are completely incapable of making sound and logical assessments, and that all your opinions and judgments should be disregarded from now forward.
penix
"Not a single AMD based laptop has exploded, and I believe this is no coincidence"
I'm sorry but your belief won't be good enough to justify several hundred million dollar recall. Especially as the fauly part has been found and replaced, at least for people who wanted to.
There are much more lives at stake with cars and booze every day and nobody wants to recall those. I wonder why.
penix
"Microsoft controls Windows and Windows is the OS that is running on 90%+ computers today. Do not ramble on a tangent. Do you agree with this statement, yes or no?"
I agree that it runs on most PC's but the reason why it has majority of market share is not because it is the best OS out there.
anonymous agent #101
Remember, AMD bought NexGen which is the source of the Athlon.
No. AMD bought Nexgen which designed the K6, not K7. The K7 design included ideas from K6 and K5 as well as ideas from DEC.
Historically, AMD has never been very strong in CPU design and has bought/borrowed most of their IP.
Really? You really should actually know something about the topic before you post. AMD's designs up 586 were entirely derivatives of Intel's designs. That is true. However, AMD's first micro-op core design, the K5 was done entirely in-house. The K6 was purchased with Nexgen however the K7 was designed in-house with a bit of help from the DEC alpha bus. The K8 however was not derivative although it did show parallel development with the Alpha that was released at about the same time in 2003.
The K8 depends far less on DEC tech than K7 since K7 uses the DEC bus but K8 does not. Dual core in K8 comes from AMD's own patents and the core design is obviously reworked from K7 including a larger L0 cache and two extra stages to allow pipeline crossover for workload balancing. The only part of K8 that related to DEC was HyperTransport which was jointly developed. The IMC was not related to Alpha. AMD simply used its knowledge of the 760 northbridge.
BTW, K8L is not a shell game. That notion along with the 2-3 year delay idea originally came from none other than Charlie Demerjian. However, having seen the modications from K8 it is clear that K8L is fully resurveyed. In other words, K8L is as much of a change over K8 as K8 was over K7.
Others have stated that there is a K10 design due out in 2010 however this idea is wrong as well. There is no design beyond Barcelona. In 2009 Barcelona will get Direct Connect architecture 2.0. At this point the entire die will be modular. This will allow AMD to make upgrades without having to redisgn the entire layout.
For those individuals who've been claiming that AMD simply sat on the K8 design, this notion is silly. In 2003, AMD was trying to catch up with socket 939. In late 2004, AMD had its hands full with the pending release of dual core. In 2005 AMD had to work on the DDR2 IMC along with Pacifica. In other words, we have major releases in 2005, 2006, and 2007 with DC 2.0 due in 2008. No lag in the schedule, no sitting on the design. The only period without a major release was 2004.
"PENIX said.. http://xtreview.com/review81.htm
Their test systems contain way too many differences for an accurate benchmark. They do not even have the same amount of ram, for crying out loud! They make no mention if their benchmarks are single-threaded or multi-threaded. This has huge impact on how the benchmark can be evaluated. This review is clearly very amateur and cannot be taken seriously."
Im fairly certain that you are blind or just plainly ignorant. First two benchmarks are single-thread, hench clockspeed of P-M an Turion ML previal.
DivX and Xvid are multithreaded applications, however clockspeed of P-M helps alot.
In winrar dual core and more memory should help out. Newer versions of winrar benfit greatly from dual cores, but since they dont mention wich version of the application they are using its hard to tell whats going on.
3DMax is a multithreaded application, wich should be hard for even you to spot. Im fairly sertain that Aquamark 3 is single-threaded application. Large cache makes Intel a winner in this benchie.
Games benfit greatly from larger cache and dual core cpus, hench intel wins. In superpi its a compination of clockspeed and cache size.
All in all Intel Core Duo offer more preformance in this review. And you only need to look at the diagram for TL-60 and T2500 to know this.
AMD notebook has:
AMD Turion 64 X2 TL-60 2 GHz
Chipset NVIDIA nForce 4
2x1024 Mo of DDR2-667 5-5-5-15-2T
Graphics board GeForce Go 7600 256 Mo
and Intel notebook has:
Intel Core Duet T2500 2 GHz
Chipset Intel 945GM
2x1024 Mo of DDR2-667 5-5-5-15-2T
Graphics board GeForce Go 7600 256 Mo
They are equally matched in hardware, but intel cpu previal.
Btw: The reason for the low resolution is the nv7600GS card. Plus the fact that in lower resolution the bottleneck is the cpu.
PENIX said.." http://www.presence-pc.com/tests/Duel-Turion-64-X2-Core-Duo-et-ultraportables-MSI-462/11/
Again, you have provided me with a benchmark that is clearly in my favor. This one even more so that your last post. This review put two very similar machines up agaist each other, both with nearly equal clock speed. The results clearly show AMD on top in multiple categories. The only case where Intel came out far ahead was in a SYNTHETIC benchmark. At the end of the review they even stated that they believed the AMD had room for MORE optimization and that the laptop costs less than the Intel. Did you even read this review before you presented it?"
Yes I did, unlike you! Lets look at each test, shall we?
Test1: Memory Bandwith
AMD 1
Intel 0
No Suprise their. AMD has allways excelled in this cateory. Then again Intel has 667MHz FSB and the Turion has 800MHz HTT.
Test2: mBench
AMD 0
Intel 1
No real suprise here. Intels superior SSE instructions set won the day.
Test3: SiSoft Sandra
AMD 0
Intel 1
Intel wins with ruffly 800-850 points or 13%.
Test4: Primodria
AMD 1
Intel 0
Not much to say here, its a 4% lead for AMD.
Test5: 3DMax
AMD 0
Intel 1
No really suprise here either. Intel has a 10% lead. 3DMax likes Intel :)
Test6: WinRaR
AMD 0
Intel 1
Intels larger cache wins the day.
Test5: Games
AMD 1
Intel 1/2
Its a close shot in this section. Intel wins NFS with a small margin , and AMD wins UT (8fps) and Trackmania (5-6fps). Wouldnt reallt recommend any of these laptops for games, especially not for Trackmania.
Test6: Graphics
Hardware issues on intel laptop leaves no info on its preformance.
Test7: Temprature
AMD 0
Intel 1
Not suprising since CD has 31W TPD and Turion X2 has 35W
Test8: DVD Access
AMD 1
Intel 1
There are no winner in this case. Since it depends on the speed of tester more then the hardware itself.
Test9: Trackmania @ 1024x768 AA
AMD 1
Intel 0
However at 11 FPS i wouldnt really call it a win since you cant even move the mouse inside the game.
Test10: Unreal @ 1024x768 w/ bots
AMD 1
Intel 0
Yet again these low FPS. Wouldnt really recommend anyone playing these games under 50 FPS.
Test11: CPU temprature OS and Bios
AMD 0
Intel 1
Lower thermal makes intel a winner.
Test12/13: Battery Time
First test says AMD wins with 20mins but when using DVD this lead shrinks to a mear 2mins. And for atleast all sane ppl out here 2mins are like a drunk lusianan housewife pissing in the river to hurt the enviroment. That test also revial that either the DVD in the AMD notebook or its gpu is more powerhungry then equvialnt on the intel notebook.
So lets do a count now:
AMD: 5p (6p if you can play TM @ 11FPS)
Intel: 7.5p
So what did this test show us? Well:
1 - AMD is no where superior to Intel, or godlike as you and sharikou claims.
2 - Intels notebook is "THE" options for those who actually want to do reallife things like office, winrar and 3D modelling or other cpu intensive workloads that actually require powerful SSE execution.
PENIX said.."http://www.ferra.ru/online/mobilis/26605/page-4/
These reviewers have also chosen to use completely different hardware in their comparisson. This is probably why some of the Intel setups at equal clockspeed LOSE to the AMD setup in several categories, sometimes by extremely significant margins. Although this review is in my favor, it is so poor in quality that I cannot even consider it. I must assume you did not even take the time to read the very article you presented."
Will have to agree on that one. Not the best review ive seen, probly among the 10 worst.
PENIX said.."http://www.matbe.com/articles/lire/299/amd-turion-64-x2-socket-s1-et-ddr2/
I see you tried to save the best for last. While this article is in Intel's favor, it clearly shows AMD beating Intel, again, in several categories. In gameplay the results are slanted towards Intel, even though they are run at abnormally low resolution making the benchmark unrealistic. This slant in gameplay says to me that there may have been a problem with the chipset driver at the time of the benchmark, which was conducted 9 months ago. If this test were redone today, with updated drivers and realistic resolutions, the results would undoubtedly be different. There is only one test where Intel wins without question, SuperPi. Congratulations, your exploding Core Duo can calculate Pi faster. If you are the type of person who does nothing but calculate Pi all day long, this might be worth the extra cost and explosion risks."
Are you possibly insane? The results of all the test was:
Turion ML - 1p
Turion X2 - 1p
Pentium M - 1p
Core Duo T2500 - 7p
Core Duo T2400 0p
In other words Turion X2 wa only faster in one benchmark "ONNEEE". And that was a synthetic. Even the lower clocked T2400 was faster in most cases. It posistioned itself between the faster 2500 and X2.
Isnt it strange that you can never acknoledge that Intel is superior in this manor.
Btw: Please show my some science on how you make a processor exploded. It cant be done, there are no chemicals or other substans in the cpu itself that can cause a exploxtion. Stop FUDING AROUND.
It has and shall allways remain a battery issue. Until you actually learn the basics chemistry I think you should but a sock in in it.
PENIX said.."After taking the time to evaluate 5 of reviews that YOU PROVIDED to me, there is no doubt that you are a complete and utter imbecile. This exercise has been a complete waste of time in all but one aspect. It has proven to me, and anyone else who cares to review this, that you are completely incapable of making sound and logical assessments, and that all your opinions and judgments should be disregarded from now forward."
After taking the time to read your lame ass excuse of an answer ive come to the following conclusion.
Your a little scared fanatic with a learning disorder wich have a hard time taking in knowledge.
Go back and finish high school.
Love mork
Ho Ho said...
I'm sorry but your belief won't be good enough to justify several hundred million dollar recall.
We will never agree on this, because I do not put a price tag on the lives of others.
Ho Ho said...
There are much more lives at stake with cars and booze every day and nobody wants to recall those. I wonder why.
I think it's obvious why. Cars do not come stock with hard liquer dispensers in the dashboard. If they did, they would be recalled.
In response to m0rk's relentless rambling
Your attempts to dance around the clear cut flaws in the benchmarks you provided is an insult to everyone who reads this blog. You pride yourself on your misanalysis and poor judgment, which I can only attribute to gross incompetence and/or severe delusion.
There is no longer reason for anyone to read or respond to your comments on this matter, but in good faith I will offer the following to you. If you provide two equally matched laptops, I will personally take the time to properly conduct the benchmarks, and publish the results and conclusions.
PENIX said..."Your attempts to dance around the clear cut flaws in the benchmarks you provided is an insult to everyone who reads this blog. You pride yourself on your misanalysis and poor judgment, which I can only attribute to gross incompetence and/or severe delusion.!
This coming from a man that:
- Lacks all knowledge in basic chemistry and utterly refuses to explain how a dual core cuases dual exploations, and even how a processor can exploded.
- That doesnt check his facts. Do you even remember your last comment on Dell Insprion? Claiming that old Inspirions from 2004 had Core Duo cpu`s (this particualar notebook had P4). And then when it yet again turns out to be the same faulty Sony batteries you dont retrack any of your comments.
- Refuses to back up his on "superior" claims with any own benchmarks or test. You dont even supply links.
And then Penis said....
"There is no longer reason for anyone to read or respond to your comments on this matter, but in good faith I will offer the following to you. If you provide two equally matched laptops, I will personally take the time to properly conduct the benchmarks, and publish the results and conclusions."
Read above moron. Me and many other provide links to test and reviews, something you simply refuse to do... probly because no site on the net besides this blog and maybe scientia`s would support any of you bogus claims.
Your simply like a bible christian from the south. No matter how massive the amount of evidence that is presented, and no matter how many times your proven wrong, you will never change your mind.
Thats in the rest of the world called determinism and is considered to be rather dangerous.
Btw: If you even bother to use that thing the rest of us call a "scroll wheel" on the mouse (or keyboard for those with logitech) you very fast discover that two of the reviews (xtreme and precence)
offer full details on hardware and their were to matched notebooks in both test.
m0rk spewed...
- Lacks all knowledge in basic chemistry and utterly refuses to explain how a dual core cuases dual exploations, and even how a processor can exploded.
I did not make this claim.
m0rk spewed...
- That doesnt check his facts. Do you even remember your last comment on Dell Insprion? Claiming that old Inspirions from 2004 had Core Duo cpu`s (this particualar notebook had P4). And then when it yet again turns out to be the same faulty Sony batteries you dont retrack any of your comments.
I did not make this claim.
m0rk spewed...
- Refuses to back up his on "superior" claims with any own benchmarks or test. You dont even supply links.
I offered to take the time to properly perform the benchmarks and publish the results. You have yet to step up to the challenge.
I got a good name for The next generation of AMD Processors Kr9 the name is derived from the symbol for Krypton which sounds like Kryptonite. AMD Kr9 the smart choice.
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